A follow-up to Daisy's biting problem

[hlasdf]

Hey all! Some of you may remember me from this post: viewtopic.php?f=11&t=9921 in which I received great advice for Daisy's biting problem. Some of it worked, like advice to stop punishing her by putting her in her cage and more target training(she decreased the amount of biting a bit), while what I thought was sure to work, didn't. I was told by a few people that I should target her away from situations where she might bite. As soon as she saw the targeting stick or knew I had it(or treats), she'd of course go straight for it. This, of course wasn't a bad thing, but if she knows I have the targeting stick and/or treats, she completely focuses on trying to get to them, making it impossible for me to have a chance to wait for a biting situation to target her away from before it happens. And if she keeps trying to get to them while I try to get them away from her, she gets frustrated and tries to bite me. Not only that, but as soon as she saw my hands while in "training mode", she'd lunge for them(too quick for me to react) and latch on while grinding her beak, making sure I bled. I think it may be because she thought she was supposed to "touch" my finger instead of the stick, but she bit much harder than when she touches the stick or any other time she bites me. When she did bite me, I immediately targeted her away from my hand, but I'm afraid that now she thinks that every time she bites my hand, she'll get a chance to earn a treat. Is there something I'm doing wrong or perhaps another underlying problem?

[Michael]

You're doing it wrong. The bird shouldn't be able to reach and bite if you place your hands right. Practice targeting in the cage for a while so the bird can't bite you and learns to pay more attention to the stick. Unless the cage is where the bird is most aggressive.

[hlasdf]

You're doing it wrong. The bird shouldn't be able to reach and bite if you place your hands right. Practice targeting in the cage for a while so the bird can't bite you and learns to pay more attention to the stick. Unless the cage is where the bird is most aggressive.

I've been doing targeting with her while she's in her cage and she's got it down pretty good. She usually comes out willingly and only bites from her cage if someone sticks their finger through the bars. But otherwise, she hates being in her cage and wouldn't say she's aggressive in it.

[friend2parrots]

it could be as michael's pointed out, that youre doing it wrong, so it might help to review your procedure.

i also just wanted to mention the following, which is not specifcally related to training, targeting, etc, but might be relevant in your situation:

in my own experience, and from what ive read, i have found that birds tend to "project" aggression. if they are irritated or stressed by Thing A, they take it out on Thing B.

Thing A could be something that's far away in distance, so they take it out on Thing B which is closer.

or

Thing A might have been something that stressed them in the past, and the stress hormones are still in their bloodstream, so they are taking it out now in the present moment, on Thing B.

so i would suggest, in addition to reviewing your prodedure and method, to also review anything in the birds environment that could be/have been a stressor or a potential stressor.

in the taming section, you recently began a thread about the aggression your bird is displaying toward your dogs. after reading that thread, its looking to me like your lovebird is scared and stressed by the presence of the dogs. a lot of birds exhibit aggression when they are scared, and lovebirds as a species tend to do this. (when i was researching aggression last summer to figure out how to deal with my GCC's vicious biting due to a spookout, i came across several sources that identified lovebirds and most conures as naturally aggressive species that frequently choose the "fight" response when scared, as opposed to the "flight" response.)

with my GCC, the Thing A (the spookout incident) that caused the fear had long disappeared, but the stress hormones continued to be released. hence he continued to be quite aggressive for months.

in your case, it is possible that the presence of your dogs might be causing Daisy to constantly release stress hormones. she might be in a state of constant fear, and it is possible that the fear response of "fight" (biting) is constantly being triggered by the continual release of stress hormones.

to reduce this "fight" response, i think it would be best to train your lovebird in a separate room away from the dogs.

over time, you may be able to desensitize her against fearing the dogs (while she's in the cage, you can allow another family member to let the dog walk by, and at that very moment, hand Daisy a treat. if all goes well, she will start to associate the dogs presence with treats, and hopefully stop being scared of them).

however, even if you are able to desensitize the fear away, one can never be sure when instinct can take over suddenly. thus, to ensure her safety, i think that Daisy and the dogs should never be out at the same time in the same room, now or in the future.

i hope that was helpful - all the best with your lovebird

[hlasdf]

it could be as michael's pointed out, that youre doing it wrong, so it might help to review your procedure.

i also just wanted to mention the following, which is not specifcally related to training, targeting, etc, but might be relevant in your situation:

in my own experience, and from what ive read, i have found that birds tend to "project" aggression. if they are irritated or stressed by Thing A, they take it out on Thing B.

Thing A could be something that's far away in distance, so they take it out on Thing B which is closer.

or

Thing A might have been something that stressed them in the past, and the stress hormones are still in their bloodstream, so they are taking it out now in the present moment, on Thing B.

so i would suggest, in addition to reviewing your prodedure and method, to also review anything in the birds environment that could be/have been a stressor or a potential stressor.

in the taming section, you recently began a thread about the aggression your bird is displaying toward your dogs. after reading that thread, its looking to me like your lovebird is scared and stressed by the presence of the dogs. a lot of birds exhibit aggression when they are scared, and lovebirds as a species tend to do this. (when i was researching aggression last summer to figure out how to deal with my GCC's vicious biting due to a spookout, i came across several sources that identified lovebirds and most conures as naturally aggressive species that frequently choose the "fight" response when scared, as opposed to the "flight" response.)

with my GCC, the Thing A (the spookout incident) that caused the fear had long disappeared, but the stress hormones continued to be released. hence he continued to be quite aggressive for months.

in your case, it is possible that the presence of your dogs might be causing Daisy to constantly release stress hormones. she might be in a state of constant fear, and it is possible that the fear response of "fight" (biting) is constantly being triggered by the continual release of stress hormones.

to reduce this "fight" response, i think it would be best to train your lovebird in a separate room away from the dogs.

over time, you may be able to desensitize her against fearing the dogs (while she's in the cage, you can allow another family member to let the dog walk by, and at that very moment, hand Daisy a treat. if all goes well, she will start to associate the dogs presence with treats, and hopefully stop being scared of them).

however, even if you are able to desensitize the fear away, one can never be sure when instinct can take over suddenly. thus, to ensure her safety, i think that Daisy and the dogs should never be out at the same time in the same room, now or in the future.

i hope that was helpful - all the best with your lovebird

Thanks for your Iong reply! I suppose I will review the training procedure and hope there's something I can change for the better, but I'm not good at detecting these things. As for Daisy being afraid of the dogs, they're rarely in my room, which is where we train. But even if one or both of them happen to walk in, she doesn't seem to show much fear, but more curiosity or simply ignoring them. However I could be misreading her, so I'll try to keep them out as much as possible and see if anything changes.

[Andromeda]

I think it may be because she thought she was supposed to "touch" my finger instead of the stick, but she bit much harder than when she touches the stick or any other time she bites me.

I just want to make sure that when she's targeting she's not actually biting the stick but merely touching it gently. She should not be applying any pressure to the stick or holding onto it with her beak in any way. You can accidentally train aggression and forceful biting with targeting if the bird has learned to bite the stick instead of just touch it.

An example of proper targeting behavior:

[hlasdf]

I think it may be because she thought she was supposed to "touch" my finger instead of the stick, but she bit much harder than when she touches the stick or any other time she bites me.

I just want to make sure that when she's targeting she's not actually biting the stick but merely touching it gently. She should not be applying any pressure to the stick or holding onto it with her beak in any way. You can accidentally train aggression and forceful biting with targeting if the bird has learned to bite the stick instead of just touch it.

An example of proper targeting behavior:

Hm, this could possibly be the problem. Although she hasn't been latching onto it, she did softly put her beak around it. So I should train her to touch it with just the outside of her beak?

Also, I've always wanted to say this whenever I saw you around the forum, but DANG your green cheek conure in your profile picture looks like a MAGNIFICENT BEING. I think it's the color or the way the feathers are ruffled and how his beak looks so clean.

[Andromeda]

Hm, this could possibly be the problem. Although she hasn't been latching onto it, she did softly put her beak around it. So I should train her to touch it with just the outside of her beak?

If she's putting her beak around it that's fine as long as it is soft and gentle as well as brief. You could train her to just touch it but if she's not biting it with pressure in the first place I don't think it's necessary.

You mentioned she gets really focused on the treats and if you are not already doing this always keep the treats out of sight such as in your pocket or behind your back.

Also, I've always wanted to say this whenever I saw you around the forum, but DANG your green cheek conure in your profile picture looks like a MAGNIFICENT BEING. I think it's the color or the way the feathers are ruffled and how his beak looks so clean.

Aw, thanks! He is a magnificent being---at least I think so! That is actually my favorite picture of him and it was taken as he was drying off after a bath. Here is a link to the full picture.

I really love the profile picture of your lovebird, Daisy looks so sweet!

[hlasdf]

Hm, this could possibly be the problem. Although she hasn't been latching onto it, she did softly put her beak around it. So I should train her to touch it with just the outside of her beak?

If she's putting her beak around it that's fine as long as it is soft and gentle as well as brief. You could train her to just touch it but if she's not biting it with pressure in the first place I don't think it's necessary.

You mentioned she gets really focused on the treats and if you are not already doing this always keep the treats out of sight such as in your pocket or behind your back.

Also, I've always wanted to say this whenever I saw you around the forum, but DANG your green cheek conure in your profile picture looks like a MAGNIFICENT BEING. I think it's the color or the way the feathers are ruffled and how his beak looks so clean.

Aw, thanks! He is a magnificent being---at least I think so! That is actually my favorite picture of him and it was taken as he was drying off after a bath. Here is a link to the full picture.

I really love the profile picture of your lovebird, Daisy looks so sweet!

Yeah, I usually keep my treats behind my back so she focuses on the stick more, but it only helps a bit.

And wow! What a handsome birdie!!!

[Andromeda]

Yeah, I usually keep my treats behind my back so she focuses on the stick more, but it only helps a bit.

The only other thing I can think of to try to keep her less focused on treats is to alter the training environment so it's not easy for her to go after them. You say you train in your room so I don't know if you're putting her on a flat surface but it might work better if you use a training perch. If you place her on a stand around the level of your upper chest and you are standing in front of her and holding the treats behind your back it's hard for her to try to get at them and she may be more focused.

Michael sells training perches; I have two and I like them very much. They are great for flight recall or any other trick and once you do enough training on them the bird associates the perch with training and food rewards. My green cheek will even fly over to them excitedly to let me know he wants to train.

If you want something small and inexpensive there is The Percher. I also have two of those and really like them and they would be a good size for a lovebird. They are convertible so they have different configurations you can use.