Grabbing and lifting

[cml]

Ive been working on getting this to work with both parrots.

Stitch was used to it, and when he was a baby we lifted him, grabbed him, and handled him much like Kili in Michaels demonstration video for grabbing. Then he hit an aggressive phase with biting (of which much was my own fault), but we've worked passed that now and he is a calmer bird again. Ive retrained grabbing, or at least alot of it, and he allows me to lift him and put him on his back, at least for a short while. No biting, but he wriggles after a while, at which point I wait till he calms down and then stops andd reward. This seem to work great, and he's accepting it for longer and longer periods of time. Does this sound about right?

Leroy is an other matter. Most of you know a little about him by now, and he was an aviary bird, parentraised (which I think is a benefit though), and not used to contact with people at all when we got him. He was also in a rather bad shape with ruffled feathers etc when he came to us little over a year ago.

Things are much different now, he trusts us, wants to spend time with us, steps up etc, but he hasnt been keen on touching and much less grabbing and lifting. Lately though, Ive been making huge progress with him, and he now allows me to grab without lifting, but is a bit hesitant about it. He's stopped moving away from it though, and waits eagerly for me to say calm and then reward ^^.
Here's where Im not sure on how to proceed:
Ive gotten to the point where I could grab him and he was totally comfortable earlier today, which made me try to lift him, by using the method of squeezing over the wings, as described in Michaels article about this. This is also how I lift Stitch, and it works great with him.

I found it hard to lift LEroy that way though, and it felt like he was slipping away as I lifted him. He didnt like this at all, and wriggled a little, but calmed down and I put him down and rewarded. I then thought to try the different method with the thumb and finger gri, and Leroy was a champ, immediatly accepting me closing my fingers in a circle around his neck. After a few tries though, he nibbled at my fingers a little (mind only a very very light nibble, barely noticable) which I ignored until he calmed down, then removed and rewarded. Thats my concern though, I dont want to reinforce that nibble into biting by mistake, as Leroy atm NEVER bites. I want to keep it that way.
What are you guys' suggestions?
Keep working with the over the wings method, or keep at it with the thumb/finger grab? And when should I reward, when he calms down, or only if he doesnt nibble at all?

Cheers =)!

[Wayne361]

I say use whatever grab method you feel most comfortable with. As for training I would grab, reward, grab reward. Once this was accomplished where grabbing was percieved as a good thing (treat to follow/not threatening), I would lift very slightly, reward etc. Lift became slightly more when bird felt comfortable with past progress. This took a bit of time but now I can grab my bird repeatedly (sorry if that sounded x-rated), turn him over etc etc. All comes with how confident bird is with you handling it. Takes time.

Hope that helped,

Wayne

[Michael]

No biting, but he wriggles after a while, at which point I wait till he calms down and then stops andd reward. This seem to work great, and he's accepting it for longer and longer periods of time. Does this sound about right?

No. I'd hold him briefly and reward him before he has the opportunity to wiggle. When he wiggles, you release with no treat. If the bird is hungry and food motivated, the treat is a more valuable reward than freedom.

As for the second question, totally go with the neck way. If the bird is too big to fit in your hand, then grab by the neck. That's how I usually pickup Truman. Especially since your guys is ok with it. I would still practice putting your hand on his back and cupping him there without lifting just so he's ok with it. But if you can hold better by neck that's best. Same as above though, it's best to let go and reward BEFORE the nip/bite has a chance of being displayed and not after. That is the most absolute form of prevention that guarantees the bird can't feel reinforced for the nipping as part of the chained behavior. Avoiding bad behavior in the first place by rewarding before it happens works best. Then you progressively increase the duration. Since the parrot already knows what is going on and expects the treats, it cooperates. In the long term vary the required duration for best effectiveness. In practice this is a non-factor because when you grab your bird for different purposes the duration will vary automatically.

Lately I've been grabbing my parrots whenever I take them in/out of the cage rather than using a step up. Why? Because I can. And it's an extra time they are very well reinforced for allowing it. Coming out is a reward in itself as freedom, fun, and potential treats in training. Going back in is a reward with a meal (because of the way my food management is configured). Actually I have the birds fly flight recalls and then grab them off my hand or their cage to put them away. That way I don't lose the flight recall practice or exercise, but I get to end it with practicing a grab. The more times awesome stuff happens in vicinity of grabbing, the better the parrot is toward it in the long term. Of course you must train the parrot to allow you to do it in the first place before using this type of long term practice. It takes longer than the training to get perfect but if you always do it for years, you'll ultimately develop a mega hand tame parrot.

After several years of grabbing Kili a ton, she's actually grown to love it. We've turned grabbing into a secondary reinforcer. She likes to lean into my hand and cuddle in my grasp. In the colder months I take the birds outside and grasp them in my hands or jacket to keep them warm. I think that too has helped convinced them that it's pleasant being held.

[cml]

Thank you both for your replies!

Same as above though, it's best to let go and reward BEFORE the nip/bite has a chance of being displayed and not after. That is the most absolute form of prevention that guarantees the bird can't feel reinforced for the nipping as part of the chained behavior.

I agree, prevention seems to be the best solutiuon, but what if he touches my fingers with his beak (its really not even nibbling at this point)? No reward at all in that case?

When he wiggles, you release with no treat. If the bird is hungry and food motivated, the treat is a more valuable reward than freedom.

But I should wait till he gets still right (usually takes a few seconds at most, he knows whats going on)?

As for the second question, totally go with the neck way. If the bird is too big to fit in your hand, then grab by the neck. That's how I usually pickup Truman. Especially since your guys is ok with it. I would still practice putting your hand on his back and cupping him there without lifting just so he's ok with it. But if you can hold better by neck that's best.

Aye, will continue with the neck way with Leroy, and over the wings with Stitch. Stitch doesnt like the neck approach at all, but with him I can already put him on his back with the other way so I'll keep doing that and then when we got it down perfectly, work with the neck as well.

After several years of grabbing Kili a ton, she's actually grown to love it. We've turned grabbing into a secondary reinforcer. She likes to lean into my hand and cuddle in my grasp. In the colder months I take the birds outside and grasp them in my hands or jacket to keep them warm. I think that too has helped convinced them that it's pleasant being held.

Thats my goal as well, I want to be able to handle both parrots the way I could with Stitch about a year ago .

I think we will get there, both parrots are doing great, and perhaps Leroy especially so because he is growing so trusting, even if I can already lift Stitch, whereas with Leroy I cannot. Its heart warming to see . Nah, both parrots are doing equally well!

We are also training them to be in their travel cages for the spring and summer, so they can come along for shorter trips etc =). Its going really well, Leroy has no problems there at all, Stitch is a little wary but accepts it. Different progress in different areas!

[cml]

For how long should I be able to hold Leroy around the neck, before actually trying the lift?

Atm he stays calm for about 5ish seconds, sometimes a bit longer, before I stop. Note that I am releasing BEFORE he gets uncomfortable, so I dont know how long I could hold the grip before he would start to wriggle.

I try to keep the grip longer and longer and he is doing great =).

[Michael]

Well that's exactly it. You just go progressively longer. If you never experience discomfort, then you are anywhere from spot on to overly cautious but this won't hurt. Sometimes you can test things a little to see how much progress you can push, but I wouldn't do it unless very familiar/close with the bird.

[cml]

Well that's exactly it. You just go progressively longer. If you never experience discomfort, then you are anywhere from spot on to overly cautious but this won't hurt. Sometimes you can test things a little to see how much progress you can push, but I wouldn't do it unless very familiar/close with the bird.

Aye, better safe than sorry. Atm I am not actually lifting Leroy yet, just holding him.

Stitch can lie on his back for about 10-15s before getting uncomfortable.

[cml]

Things are progressing nicely, and Leroy today was so calm and secure during the neck grab that I decided to do a quick lift.

This didnt go too well...

He squeaked and started kicking with his feet. How is it supposed to be when you lift a parrot like this, because I felt the grip was rather insecure in such a way that there was no support for his back?
He didnt get a treat for this, and he flew off when I put him down, but he was calm again a few seconds later, again accepting a neck grab (but without the lift).

Somehow I feel so much more insecure with Leroy, probably because I am nervous of doing it wrong, ruining the trust we've built up.

Stitch on the other hand I can teach pretty much anything, he's a quick learner, and I know exactly where I got him. He's supercalm now, lying on his back in my hand for longer and longer periods of time, its just a matter of slowly extending the duration by random longer times etc as you described Michael.

But Im really not sure on how to proceed with Leroy. How do I know he's ready for a lift? I really thought he was, as he's been doing so great with the grab.

[cml]

Noone with advice?

[marie83]

Not me sorry no advice because personally I do not like the neck lift method. I would rather support the whole body even if it does put me at risk of a bite. That said I've never kept big birds myself, the biggest was the rosella and thats small.