Grabbing and lifting

[Pralina]

ok I would really like to be able to do this with my birds!!!!

I cant seem to find the blog entry on grabbing, can you post the link pleeeease!

[cml]

Not me sorry no advice because personally I do not like the neck lift method. I would rather support the whole body even if it does put me at risk of a bite. That said I've never kept big birds myself, the biggest was the rosella and thats small.

Thats my concern as well, it doesnt feel like I support him enough. When lifting Stitch I lift him with a grip over his wings...but that was harder with Leroy, which is why I started to train the neck grip. I just dont know when to lift, and it feels like there isnt enough support for him...

[Michael]

Have you ever seen your parrot hang from something just by its beak? They have a really strong neck and strong neck muscles. Obviously you don't want to snap or move their neck hard. But if you just grab by it in a smooth way, it's perfectly harmless. In fact it's probably safer than grabbing them from the sides and squeezing the belly. You're more likely to suffocate (or at least cause discomfort) from squeezing the belly than the neck. They have a calcified trachea so air will still flow.

That said, I don't just hold them dangling by the neck (although I clearly can and it doesn't irk them too much0. I grab by the beck but then flip the bird immediately so it is laying on its back on my palm. That distributes the weight better and reduces the risk of an accidental impact to the neck. With Kili it's really easy and I can grab her any which way because of size. With Truman, he's almost too big to grab across the back so I (and he) much prefer to grab by beck and turn him on his back in my palm to carry. Yet, in this position the neck is still restrained so this is convenient for grooming or any other activity.

I do agree that parrots should be taught to accept grooming using positive reinforcement but I don't agree that it should be done unrestrained. I think the risk of injury from a sudden motion, bite, or flinch is not justified to have the parrot free stand offering its foot for grooming. Instead it is best to develop that same willingness but to restrain the parrot (as discussed) when performing the actual cut.

[cml]

Aight, I can buy those arguments, Leroy frequently just hang from stuff with only his beak.

That said, I don't just hold them dangling by the neck (although I clearly can and it doesn't irk them too much0. I grab by the beck but then flip the bird immediately so it is laying on its back on my palm. That distributes the weight better and reduces the risk of an accidental impact to the neck. With Kili it's really easy and I can grab her any which way because of size. With Truman, he's almost too big to grab across the back so I (and he) much prefer to grab by beck and turn him on his back in my palm to carry. Yet, in this position the neck is still restrained so this is convenient for grooming or any other activity.

This is the thing, did you teach the actual lift by using your method described here: http://trainedparrot.com/index.php?bid=20 , under "rolling parrot on back", or did you do a lift?

This is the step that I feel most confused about. Stitch, which I lift with the wings-method, I trained by doing a short lift, then gradually increasing the duration of the lift. Then I started increasing the angle, until he was on his back in my hand. Then we started working on duration again, and thats where we are at.

With the neck method, Leroy didnt like the lift part at all, so I am at a loss here on what to do. Especially so since wriggling or squeaking shouldnt be rewarded at all,but if I read your article correct you say to hold until they get uncomfortable, which isnt what we've discussed in this thread?. In the article I linked you instead talk about a combination of flooding, negative and postive reinforcement, and that you just do the grab/lift until the parrot calms down?

In the first couple of minutes in the video, you can see Truman wriggling and squeaking just as Leroy did, but you wait till he calms down, then stop the lift, and reward.
This is negative reinforcement in combination with positive right? What do you reckon here, is that the way to go, or should one use only postive reinforcement, such as I am trying to do now?

The grab part, and how to hold is simple, its the transition into a lift that I find hard to do with the neck-method!

Oh I must add that Truman really is a joy to watch =)!

[Michael]

Ok. Well a few things. First of all, the way I'm grabbing Truman and holding him on his back but by the neck, that's the way I was trying to suggest to you. That's exactly what I meant by holding by the neck but supporting on your palm.

As for the methods. The preventative method where you don't allow wiggle, discomfort, or resistance is the safest method. Also possibly the most correct method. The one mentioned in the older article is the way I did it. I think this is a quicker method and something that can safely be used on a tame and/or baby parrot. If you're afraid that your relationship hangs by a thread, then I'd say go with the perfect method. If you already have a relationship and just want to teach the new thing... it's a bit of give and take. You lose a little trust but then with practice you gain greater trust. As long as it doesn't kill your relationship during the lose part, you'll make up for it when you reach the gain trust part.

So which method you should use really depends on your comfort level and how well tamed/trained the bird is in all other regards. Try teaching the grab by neck by doing the roll on back exercises shown in that video first. It's easier and supported on the feet. Then when it is good at it, you can transition it to a perch until you can just grab the bird by neck and roll onto back.

[cml]

Thanks =)!

Sounds good, I agree that using a completely positive approach is probably safest. The thing with Leroy is that we have trust, but it has taken time to build it up to our current level, because of his previous conditions, as well as an accident he had a while after he got here (some of you might remember he flew into a wall, and blamed us for long after ^^). Atm though he really trusts me, and wants to be with me, train etc. I dont want to spoil that, so going slowly is probably best.

With Stitch its a bit different, he trusts me completely, and training him has never been hard. True, we've had roadbumps with him as well, but there has never been any trust-issues.

A concern with the rolling onto back-method, is it possible that the parrot starts associating "step up" with the uncomfort of being rolled over to his back?

[Michael]

Well that's the the give and take...

[Michael]

This is another reason I think food management is so important to training. It makes the food carry a much higher value so the worth of getting a piece of nut over the discomfort of being rolled back is more significant. So a not hungry parrot will say I'd rather not eat than let you do that to me. The medium hungry bird will say fine. The quite hungry bird will say come on let's get this show on the road. I have seen this exact sort of response with my guys as I've tried them at all kinds of weight configurations. They are great at doing tricks and will even give me freebies every now and then. However, the response, quality, and speed at which they learn is greatly impacted by their hunger level. I think you'd have greater success using positive reinforcement and convincing your parrot to go with what you are doing if it would be food/weight managed to a certain extent.

[Wayne361]

I never really thought about a certain "method" per say, but when i think about it I put my shooting finger and thumb around neck and remainder of fingers around the wings. I got Oscar comfortable with lifting first. Lift reward, lift reward etc. Once he was comfortable with this I simply flipped him over one day. He reacted like "WTF!?" but I quickly scratched his head/beak to calm him down. I didnt flood him as I did this very quickly and he calmed down quickly as a result. Once I did this a few times he figured out in his bird brain that the "flip" meant good things were going to happen (kinda like my favourite massage place hahahaha). Anyhow, now I can grab and flip him over at will cause he is now accustomed to the practise and doesnt feel threatened/afraid.
I know all birds react differently, as does level of trust etc.

Wayne

[cml]

This is another reason I think food management is so important to training. It makes the food carry a much higher value so the worth of getting a piece of nut over the discomfort of being rolled back is more significant. So a not hungry parrot will say I'd rather not eat than let you do that to me. The medium hungry bird will say fine. The quite hungry bird will say come on let's get this show on the road. I have seen this exact sort of response with my guys as I've tried them at all kinds of weight configurations. They are great at doing tricks and will even give me freebies every now and then. However, the response, quality, and speed at which they learn is greatly impacted by their hunger level. I think you'd have greater success using positive reinforcement and convincing your parrot to go with what you are doing if it would be food/weight managed to a certain extent.

Actually, today I saw this with Leroy. I started using sunflower seeds for the grab-training rather than pieces of almond (which is their super-treat), and he started to fly away from me, showing distinct disintrest! When I offered almonds on the other hand, well, he still thought it a bother but stayed put!

Im gonna try and cut back a little on his breakfast ration, so he will be a tad hungrier when we try again tomorrow!