Wing clipping and basic training

[Msaad]

Ok, my TAG has his wings clipped a year ago, and now he can fly, it took him 5 months, so i don't know, but it helped the previous owner to train him. But in my house, he is refusing to step up, and much like refusing my hand. How to change that? He just look at it and wonder WTF is that, than bite it, than give me that puppy face, than start to laugh. Any help? Every parrot trainer in my country clip their parrot wings when they start training them and if necessary every 6 months.

[Polarn]

There is really no reason to clip your bird to be able to tame or train it. I am guessing mos of the parrot trainers in your area are relying on flooding as well to tame their birds, wich is pretty much an outdated method and is pretty much proven to be less effective than positive reinforcement.

I would read up on positive reinforcement and the reasons to be using it and how it actually works.

But basically if you clip the bird and force it to perform whatever act you want, stepping up for example, it will basically learn to step up because there is no other exit and it will give up trying to avoid it. Sure you have now gotten your bird to step up, but not because it wants too but because it knows it is useless to try and not do it.

If you use positive reinforcement and always giving the bird the option to choose not too it will learn that stepping up is rewarding and it will actually WANT to step up for you.

While both methods actually so work, there is a HUGE difference in the kind of relationship the two of you will have depending on method chosen. And to me there isn't a hard choice, well there isn't really any choice it's like choosing between a good and a bad. Getting a tasty icecream Ina sunny day or a frozen turd in the middle of the winter... If your given the choice between these two the descition is most likely to be extremely predictable and obvious.

[Msaad]

My TAG is accepting positive reinforcement but not my hand, when i approach my hand, and try to make him step up, he just fly, like saying, i don't give a shit for your hand or your order, i can fly away :/

[Polarn]

well weather or not he accepts possitive reinforcement isnt really a question, every single bird has something that it considers positive and therefor can be used to encourage a certain behavior, working with taming an aviary bird the biggest reinforcer sometimes is to leave it alone or stepping back.. And even if increasing the distance to the bird as a reward is used to begin with doesn't mean that leaving the bird alone will be the best reward forever, eventually it will figure out that you do not push farther than it is comftible with, and it will become more and more comtible with you getting close and somewhere along the road, leaving the bird alone isn't reinforcing at all then being allowed to be on the hand or receiving cuddles is a reinforcer instead.

If you mean tat your bird will accept treats from your hand youre off to a good start. there is plenty of articles in michaels blog talking about gaining initial trust and getting your bird to willingly step up, nudging the tummy is not one of them (not saying you do that but since you try to "make him" step up I suspect you have atleast once tried pushing your finger/hand against him to force him to step up) try asking him instead of making him... there is a difference... I can make my employees clean the bathroom because I prefer not too, but I could only ask a spouse to do it out of her own free will, who knows maybe she would clean the bathroom so that I wouldn't have too, maybe she would tell me no, and I would have todo it on my own. I knwo thats a really strange analogy.

But.. what I am getting at is that you should try change your mindset into ASKING your bird to do something rather than DEMANDING it. and as to any request there is always the chance of the answer being NO. accept the no, and back off try ask for something easier, and reward for doing that, eventually it will figure out that every time he does what he is asked to do he will be rewarded.

it's like if I would go up to any given stranger asking for a kiss there is a great chance that this particular stranger would not give me a kiss, maybe she would, but for the sake of the argument I'll state that she wouldn't. However if I would have walked up to this same stranger offering my hand to be shook she more than likely would, this is because shaking a strangers hand is far less physical or intimate for us humans. So this particular female was fine to grab my hand to greet me but she was not fine with giving me a kiss. Now given enough oportunitys to meet this exact same woman, lets say at the busstop in the morning, I could probably shake her hand a 100 days in a row as long as I reward her in some way, either by a compliment, by cracking a joke, whatever she responds positiv too (this IS a form of positive reinforcement) eventually after X amount of days this particular woman would be waiting each morning for me to get to the busstop and even if I wouldnt walk up with my hand held forward she would raise hers, because this is what she has learnt will lead to the interaction that she finds positive... and well as time goes you could probably increase the duration of the handshake up until the point where you could grab her hand with both your hands etcetere etcetera leading up to the point that this person is probably comftible enough around you to not consider it strange or feeling pushed if you raised both your hand offering her a hug as you say your goodbye... Now I am not saying that the sequence of an event like that would result in you being able to push it as far as a kiss because that would require the sexual attraction as well. BUT I am fairly confident that given enough opportunitys you could by simple means get someone you only meet for 2-3 minutes a day to be conftible enough around you AND be reinforced enough to look forward to your 2-3 minute interaction. However if I would walk up the first time shake her hand state something uninterested and booring, and keep on doing that this person would never look forward to the interaction and therefor would never feel happy or excited about getting that hugz goodbye.

Sorry bout the long rant to state one single fact; Ask your bird for permission and accept a no, and try to not push it far enough that no is its answer, for every no you receive when asking for a particular thing you increase the amount of work it takes to build up the trust a will to perform this particular act.

[Msaad]

When i offer my hand, he simply kiss my finger, than bite my nail than he turn around. :/

[Polarn]

well if he accepts treats, try offer him a chopstick to touch, if he does then give hi ma treat for it. the chopstick may be less intimidating and less intimate than your hand.

Try read through http://trainedparrot.com/Taming/ and really read it, if you have already done and either doesn't trust the guide to work or still havn't figure out the content of the text, try read another article written by someone else. read to understand why and practice to understand how.

[Msaad]

He is target trained, but just refuse to step up :p

[Ardeotis]

Clip your bird. You didn't say how long you had him, but he doesn't trust you. If he did you wouldn't have any issues having him step up regardless of him being flighted. The whole "he has no where to go if he's clipped and will step up" doesn't always hold true. He can still bite you if he's clipped. You need to work on bonding before training. Wings will always regrow. Greys can be super finicky and you don't want an un-trusting Grey. A lot of people are super anti-clip around here, but their reasons don't hold water.

[Michael]

A lot of people are super anti-clip around here, but their reasons don't hold water.

Let's see about holding water.

...he doesn't trust you.

If he did you wouldn't have any issues having him step up regardless of him being flighted.

The whole "he has no where to go if he's clipped and will step up" doesn't always hold true. He can still bite you if he's clipped.

I don't see how imposing yourself upon a bird, cutting its wings, inhibiting its ability to fly... is supposed to develop trust! Or teach it to step up for that matter. Would you trust someone who clubbed you in the knees?

Why is clipping recommended when it's not even relevant to the issue at hand which is trust?

[Msaad]

No, but i need help with my problem, i have him its been 1.5 month, everyday he have a playtime for around 1-2h he stay on his cage, or fly to the couches. He is target trained, i can play with him him, touch his wings, we play a lot, we do everything together, when i go out, he is me. But refusing my hand. :/