Is ALL biting bad?

[NHCardinal]

I've been impressed by Michael's instruction, in a month and a half my lovie has gone from sounding distress calls when I opened a cage door to now she's eating from my hand (though not perched on it).

Before I started target training, she bit me once as my millet offering was in my palm. It wasn't a bad bite and I can tell she didn't do it out of fear or aggression, as it was on her terms. Now that I am target training and I'm inevitably offering a smaller and smaller perch she is starting to inspect my hands once again and wanting to bite (again, no fear or aggression).

Michael suggests that if the bird bites to backtrack in the training (target to perch > general targeting), but I feel its inevitable that the bird will do some sort of biting. I wanted to know if all biting is bad?

[Polarn]

Well to me, biting is bad, beaking is totally acceptable... I do let birds feel my fingers or just hold em with their beak if they feel like it (this however I can admit is a bad habbit and I will explain why later).
Anyways to me there is a huge difference between biting and beaking, beaking can either be feeling the object (your hand) or playing with it, I dont mind birds using their beaks to play with my hands as long as they do not get too rough. While I see biting as something they do becasue they want something in return for it, now the wanting may be a various amount of things.. you pulling your hand away creating distance, you screaming and yelling, you start crying, being put back in its cage etc etc, whatever the bird has learnt happens after a bite has also learnt the bird to bite to get that same thing happening...

Now why I consider letting my birds beak my hands and fingers being a bad habbit... Now I dont personally mind this since I am not even the slightest bit affraid of them. However this is a bad habbit since you always has to explain to people not used to birds that they may grab your finger and feel it a bit with their tounge before they steps up, but as long as you do not pull back causing them to loose balance or something they wont grab your finger hard. Now this isn't something that really calms someone who may have a fascination but at the same time intimidation of birds where they want the bird to perch on them but at the same time being afraid of them... but then again these people seems to either suck it up and trust the bird to only beak to then have the bird perched on them, or they decide its not for them today, maybe another day as they have gathered some courage... either way someone who is slightly intimidated of them (atleast my birds) will usually get beaked so that the bird knows it is a solid object their stepping onto, however someone used to being around birds or that doesnt have a bone of fear in their bodies usually wont be beaked as they step up, but that ahs a lot to do with attitude and posture I think, if your hand seems flimsy my birds will beak and feel it out before stepping on it, but if you come up with a solid hand asking them nicely to step up they usually wont beak it... however Tuffe sometimes when he starts to get sleepy at night will cuddle up on my chest and hold onto my pinky and feel it with his tounge, have no idea why he does that, he may find it comforting or something.

To sum it up short I do not consider all usage of a beak upon me to be bad.

[NHCardinal]

Thanks for the response Polarn, I was event aware of the term "beaking". I just concluded our nightly training session and it was the worst one I've had yet...

She was unusually brazen tonight! Biting the target stick, to the point where he bit and pushed the stick. This is probably my fault right here, as I usually wait until her beak taps the stick, I will not adjust to click right before touching.

She also willingly flew to the perch without a target stick and was craning her neck to get a nip on my fingers, which she eventually did bite my finger in-between targeting. I reacted by pulling back and saying "No!" but is this the right reaction? It seems as though she will not get comfortable with something until she gives it a enough inspecting bites, much like the target stick. I don't know if I can endure that with my hands!

[Pajarita]

Well, there is actually a third word: nipping.

Beaking is like what babies do, they put things in their beak to 'feel' them and birds do this all the time.
Nipping is when they apply pressure but don't break the skin or make a bruise (used mostly as warning).
Biting is when they break the skin or make a bruise.

Beaking and nipping are normal and acceptable (sometimes you have to teach them not to be so rough with their nips) but biting is not and should be avoided at all costs (meaning, if the bird doesn't want to do something, don't insist).

[CSLFiero]

as mentioned, the severity of the bite matters. it can be hard to tell what level of "bite" someone is receiving because i've experienced no less than 5 (and will certainly encounter more) levels of beak to skin contact. I've mentioned before that what constitutes a bite often depends on situational factors, successful-ness of the contact, location of the contact, and of course your own perception of pain.

I think by necessity not all biting is bad behavior on the part of the bird just like being bitten isn't always bad behavior on the part of the handler.

I think what's important is three things:

1) attain a level of tameness that allows you and the bird to have a functional and desirable relationship.
2) don't encourage biting as a means of getting what they want. (this can be wicked hard, but remember to be consistent and address excessive aggression with as little additional stimulus as humanly possible)
3) Don't provoke a tame bird to bite. (spook, pester, ignore body language. Basics of trust).

I think if people stuck to these rules, they'd find the level of beak to flesh contact their parrot engage in to be acceptable.

[NHCardinal]

How should I react when I know a nip or bite is imminent?

[CSLFiero]

How should I react when I know a nip or bite is imminent?

In your specific case, I would deny the opportunity to earn a treat. It sounds like your lovie understands the target training concept, and so it knows it can behave a certain way and receive food for it. by taking away that opportunity, you can impose a little humane negative punishment and, in theory, it should reduce the birdie's desire to bite while maintaining it's desire to earn food.

of course, you want to come right to the brink of this, and if you can remove the opportunity only after the bite occurs to make it certain that it's the biting that is causing the loss of opportunity. Additionally, it shouldn't also come with a complete removal of your hands. To remove your hands would be reinforce that biting makes hands go away. keep your hands a close however safe distance and/or present them in a way that would minimize it's ability to land a good/painful bite. What you want to imply is that biting makes fun and food go away, not your hands. That's the key.

check out mike's book if you haven't already. he goes over stuff like this is much greater detail and honestly it would be disrespectful of me, having read it, to go spilling his tips on his own forum when he makes a living on this stuff

[Wayne361]

To add to what has already been said, when I was training Oscar my He was a rehome with some behavioural issues. When he decided to bite (when I couldnt read the tell-tale signs and avoid), I would just hold my hand in a tight fist and let him have at it. By tightly clenching fist it makes it much harder for him to get a solid bite. Ya I would recieve a few good bites but would illustrate to the bird that biting would not get him the desired affect. I made sure I didnt remove hand and he would soon retreat. I guess I was kind of showing him who was boss while enforcing the fact that biting would not result in desirable action for the bird.
Through training/bonding/positive reinforcement, as well as flight training, Oscar is a much much better behaved bird and I havent gotten bit in ages. Last time was a "scare" bite when my wife came into the room in a bit of a rush with a bunch of shopping bags....Oscar was on my lap and bit my hand while I was scratching him. Wasnt a hard bite but a reactionary one.

[NHCardinal]

Thanks for the tips everyone. BTW, CSLFiero I did purchase Michael's book, that's what I was referencing in the last paragraph of the OP.