[Help] Problem with a young amazon

[Caccamo]

Hi, I'm Caccamo from italy.
First of all sorry for my bad english i will try to explain my problem.
I bought a young amazon it's 8 months old. I bought from a breeder.
I would start to say that i bought the parrot wizard book and i'm trying to follow the book.
Cleo, my amazon, she's with me from 2 weeks and i started taming and training with clicker and target 1 week ago.
Cleo have a problem with my hands. She alwayse accepted food without problems form my hands, since the first time, but any other kind of movement of my hands, near him, it's a problem. She don't escape or become crazy(also because i don't force her, i just stop my movement and take away from her my hand), but i understand her annoyance because she starts to do a little noise with voice and she tries slowly to bite me. But this is not the real problem because this not stop me to train him. Now she have completly padronance with target training. I do training alwayse before food time(evening and morning and maybe she just understand that its a way to eat and so this is why she follow the target). In last days i try step up. Probably i wrong in this step because i don't wait to have the padronance in the step up to bring out Cleo form cage. We do the training in step up, alwayse out of cage, on his cage. Initially we have some problem related with the fear of the hand but in the end now i alwayse succed with step up but it's only for few istant. Just the time that cleo touchs target and take the treat and after that she just return in his before position to eat the treat. Also here i think i succes in step up only because she understand that is a way to eat. The problem is here. I noticed in this 2 weeks that i have a depressed bird. i explain better. The cage of Cleo is big (120cmx80cmx100cm) and it's quite full of games(swings, ropes, wood,etc) but when i enter in the room, i alwayse found Cleo in the same spot, in completely silence. The spot is near the bowl of food. My amazon never speak or screaming, etc she is alwayse in silence and i'm afraid of this. Also if i remain in the room with her is alwayse stand in the same spot and silence. I never see her play with some, just one time when i give her a piece of colorated plastic that he likes but i take from her because after 30 minutes he broke the plastic and try to eat a little piece. I don't have big problem to put her in cage when is out of cage because i use target method and also if she don't step up i just create a route with target to conduce her in the cage. Every time i put her in the cage i give her the complete meal. Also here start another problem if i'm with her she eat with no problem but if i go away or when she finish to eat, she realize that she can't go out cage and start to climb all over the cage and to be nervous. If i go away this finish in few minutes but she remain in the same spot and in silence for all the time. I understand that she don't want be in the cage and i try also to stay in the same room with her when she is out of cage, on his cage, but also in this situation she remain in one spot in silence. I have interaction with her only when we training.
I have to precise that she have not fear of me. because when we play with training, few times she flies to me and land on my hand (2 times) and one time on my back when i was bented to take something from floor. I'm afraid that the problem is the food managment, i feed her 2 times a day and with few seeds, i was scared that she was fat because before she had 24/24h seed aviable from breeder, and i saw her fat, and reading about food managment i start to pratice the advice to don't give her 24/24 food aviable and that seeds it's not the best meal. I'm waiting my order of pellets during this waiting i give her 2 spoon of boiled seeds each meal. Maybe it's too little and i have those problems because my birds is hungry?
what do you think?

Thanks so much for any advice.
Sorry for english

[Wolf]

From all appearances you are quite observant and want to do right by your bird and this is a good thing. I do think you have a food management problem, but I can't tell to what degree as yet. To begin with, in my house I have many spoons in many sizes, if I am using one spoon I may be giving too much food, a different spoon and I would be starving my bird. What size of spoon are you using? You also do not mention feeding your bird any fruit, nuts, or vegetables, all of which your bird needs for a healthy diet. I would also suggest that you give your bird sprouted seeds as opposed to boiled seeds and some whole uncooked seeds. If you will read the entries on this forum under health and nutrition you will find many directions for a homemade mash that you could feed your bird that would be far superior to anything that you could buy. Your bird may be depressed, and I would be if I were him, but he may also be lethargic fro the poor diet and first thing that I would do is to get him in to be evaluated by a vet right away. Birds hide it if they are sick and you want to be sure that he has a clean bill of health. I would also talk to the vet about his diet.

Your bird also needs to have frequent baths, you may use a large shallow ( 1 1/2 inch or 2 inch deep ) dish or pan for a bath or you may use a spray bottle filled with room temperature water for this.

It sounds like you are rushing on the steps in your training. for example when you ask your bird to step up to come out of his cage don't give the treat right away, wait until you actually get him out of the cage them offer the treat to him.

Now for the most difficult part, you said that the only time you spend with your bird is twice a day and only for training. This is all wrong. I do not want to be rude or too harsh but if that is all of the time you interact with your bird then you are abusing this bird. Your bird is a very intelligent creature and lives in a flock so it needs social interaction for it well being and like everything else in its life it looks to you for this interaction. Do not treat him as if he is an unfeeling possession like a shoe because he has emotional needs that rival yours or maybe even surpass your in depth and intensity. Your bird (friend ) needs a minimum of 1 to 4 hours of socializing with you each and every day. This may be spent in training, playing, flying or just hanging out on or near to you. Pet your bird, talk to your bird, sing to your bird ( he won't care if you can carry a tune or not ). Treat him as if he is your best friend in life and in time as you build mutual trust you will find that he is your best friend. If you are feeling down he will feel this too and try his best to comfort you and make things better for you. He also needs as much out of cage time as possible every day.

If this sounds like a big commitment, you are right it is and it is worth every second of it in the long run and it is a long run ( 30 years or more ). There will be others here who will also answer this post and try to help you. Many of them are much more knowledgeable than myself. Good luck with your new friend and please let us know how it is going and maybe include some pictures of him, we all love pics.

[Caccamo]

Hi Wolf, thak you so much for your reply.
About food managment i didn't say all about it. I add alwayse some fruit or vegetables, like apple, pear, sweet pepper, zucchini etc to the meal, or sometimes i give her only fruits and vegetables in the morning and the evening the seeds. The seeds are a professional mix that i before wash 2-3 times. After that i put them in water for 24 hours and after that i boil them for 30 minutes. The spoon is a middle spoon is not the regular soup spoon but is not also the little one for thè.It's a middle way.
For the treats i use, or some type of seeds of her meal the big one, like mais, peas or little black bean, or peice of aldmond.
Anyway this morning i wanted to try something different with food managment and training.
First of all i give her plenty of food, like 6-7 spoons and i waited that she stop to eat. She eat about half portion or some more, so i understand that the right quantity is like 3-4 spoons. Witohout takeaway the bowl of meal i start target training in the cage, and she hads no problem. Also i didn't give her treats for each success, but i alternated moment with treats and moment with just the clicker and voice positive reinforcment. All this training calm me down about she really understand the targetting, i thought before that maybe she did it only to eat. After training i take away the bowl of meal and i remain with her some time without put her out of cage. She finally start to play with ropes and wood and it's about 4 hours that go on!!! Finally for the first time i see my bird happy!!!!!!!
About the vet i thought about this but when 2 weeks ago i take her from breeder, she had just received a visit form a vet, some days before, and breeder confirm me there aren't any problems. So i think the problem was only i over reacted in front of the fear of a "fat birds", reading about food managment, and i exceed with limitation of food. After the experience of this morning, i think that your consideration "but he may also be lethargic fro the poor diet" was right.
Anyway about the photo there isn't problem. I have some of the first time, after i did some videos in the training session but they are in italian and they are long so it's useless. Maybe further i will do a collage of more videos.
So anyway i introduce you Cleo

https://www.dropbox.com/s/b8zhois5d59mg ... 1%2023.jpg
https://www.dropbox.com/s/vkr0rqkj0puld ... 1%2035.jpg
https://www.dropbox.com/s/vp6eeob0bn32w ... 2%2000.jpg
https://www.dropbox.com/s/nwg4mdubqjfr0 ... 0%2044.jpg
https://www.dropbox.com/s/0so9z4z25m64w ... 281%29.jpg
https://www.dropbox.com/s/d0945qslf2bgz ... 281%29.jpg

Thanks and any other advice is alwayse accepted!!

[Wolf]

I am happy if anything that I said was beneficial to you and Cleo. Also I am glad that you are feeding Both fruits and veggies to her as I was very concerned for her and was not aware of the rest of her diet. Thank you for setting the record straight on that. I wonder about the black beans that you give her for treats, are they cooked or raw? I ask because some beans are toxic to birds when raw.

Thank you for the pics of Cleo, she is a very pretty blue front amazon. I have an older yellow nape amazon and their weights look to be about the same in proportion to their bodies so I don't think weight is a problem either. Look forward to hearing more from you and Cleo.

[Pajarita]

You figured it out! It was too little food and, although I know that Michael does it this way, I don't agree with giving food only if the parrot works for it. Try cooking whole grains like wheat, barley, brown rice, oats, etc and mixing them with cooked vegetables that you chop finely (always add sweet potato and carrots because they need the vit A in them). My amazons love the center of the romaine lettuces and the crunchy stalks of Swiss Chard and bok choy.

Also, don't bother putting perches at the bottom of the cage because they don't like been low to the ground and always choose the higher perches -and take out those dowel perches (the perfectly round sticks) and use tree branches instead. Just make sure they are not poisonous and that they are clean but leave the bark on them (amazons LOVE to peel the bark off tree branches - you can also tie one with rope to the top of the cage for her to climb up and down)

[liz]

Wolf has given you excellent information.
Do I understand that you have Cleo in her own room? May I suggest that you put her in the busiest part of your home where she can see you the most. She may feel isolated.

[Wolf]

Wolf has given you excellent information.
Do I understand that you have Cleo in her own room? May I suggest that you put her in the busiest part of your home where she can see you the most. She may feel isolated.

Thanks liz I missed the room and you are right.