Parrots, the same as dogs

[Elaihr]

Hi,

Now Penny has been living with me and my boyfriend for about 1,5 months. She seems to be doing fine, but me and my boyfriend are having a little trouble agreeing with each other about the parrot psyche.

I am absolutely convinced parrots are not dogs. They don't live in a hierarchy as such, and therefor I don't believe they are trying to "dominate" you. My boyfriend thinks otherwise, he's completely certain that one must show who's the boss.

Now, the thing that makes us disagree is mostly that Penny will nip if taken away from somewhere she's not allowed to be. She does not nip at any other times than these. The situation usually looks like this; She's trying to chew on our TV or computer (I just don't want her to do that, I think the reasons are kinda obvious, it's probably not good neither for her nor the TV/computer...). When she flies to the TV/computer, I go there, tell her to step up (which she does), and then she'll start nipping my hand (the one she's sitting on). When she does this, I usually say "no", give her an angry stare, then put her down after a while, on a perch, on her cage, on my shoulder, etc. Then it usually takes like 20 seconds or so before she gets back to me, and she's starting to preen (either herself or me), chirp a bit, just normal parrot activities, no signs of aggression. Sometimes this is enough to interrupt her from doing the forbidden thing, and sometimes it's like she's dead set on doing that very thing. Then I will have to continue taking her away from whatever it is until she's quit it, which can be a while. I'm patient with this, but my boyfriend is not, he thinks it just can't be that an animal can be so "uncontrollable".

My boyfriend claims what I do is bad as she will get spoiled, and think it's okay to bite. So, when he's the one to interrupt her when she's up to something, he acts like he's pissed if she nips him. He'll roar (yes, seriously, like a T-rex), and if she flies off he'll actually chase her, waving his arms to look scary, and banging the walls or other objects to make things sound scary, rattle her cage or slap her beak lightly as he thinks this way of punishing her would be a great way to show her he's the boss and he's in charge. Jesus Christ, I wonder what our neighbours will think.....

I have tried to tell him I don't think this is a great idea as she'll probably think he's an unpredictable weirdo, and I doubt she can understand his behavior as I really don't think they're like dogs, and their minds don't work like that of a dog. With a dog it might help to get super angry, roar, punish them slightly, scare them a bit or whatnot, but with a parrot I think it'll just ruin the trust.

Now to the thing; Penny does actually nip him less than she nips me, so he's confident he's been doing the right thing. However, I'm the one spending more time with her, so this could also be why. Statistics you know, you can bend 'em as you please... Penny has been starting to avoid him slightly, she often sits down in places that keeps me between my boyfriend and her, turns her back on him, doesn't want to interact with him as much as with me, which makes me think he's not doing the right thing.

What I'm trying to do is giving her new toys often enough to keep her stimulated, so that she will not want to do forbidden stuff as much. This is pretty difficult though, for example she's completey obsessed with the cord of my headset. I've tried giving her strings to play with instead as I figured it's somewhat similar in shape and texture, but nope, nothing will do but the headphones. How do you stop this? I would be very happy if there was some kind of substitute that would work, but once she's got her mind set onto something she's very stubborn... I've given her foods and treats to keep her occupied, foraging toys, chewing toys, wooden perches and sticks, different materials (like fabric from old t-shirts) and stuff, but none of it will do. I don't want to give her any electronic/technical things as I fear there might be unhealthy metals or materials in them, so that's not an option. If it was books or something it'd be fine, I'd just give her her own book, but no, not a TV, or headphones.

Penny does still goes to him if I'm not available, and it's still ok for him to give her scritches, but I'm worried his behavior might cause her to dislike him in the long run.
So, what I'm wondering is basically, how do you make a parrot understand certain behaviors are not accepted? How do you say "no" to a parrot?


Neither of us are worried about getting bit (I grew up as an oldest sibling, trust me, I know pain...) so that's not an issue. I've read so many threads where they say "look out for this body language, it means they will bite, leave the parrot alone when he/she looks like this and you will not get bit", and I'm like.. I don't care if she bites me, I just want her to stop doing whatever I'm trying to stop her from doing. Of course I'd prefer it if she'd not bite me when I interrupt whatever she's up to, but it's not the actual bite I fear. The only reason why I bother is 1. My boyfriend thinks it's an issue and 2. If I have someone over who thinks she's scary, it'd be a plus if she's not chewing on people when she doesn't get to do what she wants.

Also, on a side note, she's almost two years old, and it's spring, so I suspect she's also suffering a bit from spring hormones and/or adolescence. Taking this into consideration I'd say she's a wonderful parrot, compared to what I've heard about other peoples' parrots during spring she's like a gentle summer breeze in comparison. It's really only the nipping-when-interrupted-from-doing-potentially-dangerous-things that's bothersome.

Any input would be greatly appreciated!

(And please, don't say it's the right thing to go bananas like my boyfriend thinks one should do >.< )

[Michael]

It's all about positive reinforcement and getting the parrot to want the same things. Note that the concepts of reinforcement and punishment are directly measured by results. So you may think you are punishing a bird but if the behavior does not decrease, it's not punishment. In fact if the behavior increases, thwt is reinforcement.

[Kaiit]

I have to say, I find it worrying when anybody feels it necessary to act the way your boyfriend is when training any animal. There is a vast difference between being "in charge" and having your animal submiss in fear. I know a lot of people train animals differently around the world and it's an incredibly controversial topic, but I think I'm right in saying that most good animal trainers these days only use positive reinforcement and never punishment.

I've not had much experience training parrots at all like most of these guys, but I can relate you to my experiences. I have found that training a parrot /is/ like training a dog in many respects. Let me explain how I've been taught to train dogs first though:

Dogs don't understand punishment. They are an animal and as much as they look like they understand complex human emotions, they don't understand /why/ they've done something wrong, just that you're angry when they've done something you dislike. Punishment will only ever make a dog fearful - yes, this can lead to respect, but it won't do your bond any good. Punishment and the fear of can also lead to fear based aggression further down the line. Cesar Milan is an excellent example of a man who can turn fearful dogs into aggressive ones. His name is pretty much a swear word amongst British dog trainers because he dominates dogs to try and train them - this only makes them more fearful and aggressive. If you act calmly and reward good behaviours, ignoring or distracting from bad ones, you'll train your animal much quicker and reinforce a positive bond.

Both dogs and parrots can be dangerous if you make them fear aggressive. A dog is obviously more dangerous because it can take your life, but a parrot can easily leave you with some serious wounds, especially to the face. I have never punished my parrot, even when he's bitten me seriously hard. There is always a reason for bad behaviour and it's probably either your fault, or the fault of something in the environment (like my cats, for instance - they jump on my lap when I'm holding the parrot so he bites me because he's scared).

When it comes to dominance... I've read a lot about parrots having a definite sense of dominance. Whether or not that's just mutual respect though, I'm not certain of. I was always told to keep my head height above that of my parrot's because if a parrot is equal or higher than you, he will feel in charge. It makes sense, but I'm not sure it's entirely correct; my parrot is much more comfortable at head height and responds better to training when at the same level - he's not intimidated.

I have growled at my parrot, but only when he's seriously about to bite. It always makes him think twice about doing it and when he stops and calms down, we do something positive and he gets a tickle or a treat.I never just walk away from him, I try and work out why he is behaving that way instead and revert his attention to something else. I also don't remove my hand from him when he looks like he's going to bite - this might sound stupid but to be honest, like yourself, an animal bite is pretty meaningless to me. He knows biting me does't achieve what he wants because he's done it and I didn't go away. But when he stopped trying to bite, we did something fun instead. Now he very rarely tries to bite, instead he mouths my hand gently if he's uncomfortable so we stop and slow down for a bit. It's just mutual respect, he won't bite me if I don't force him into uncomfortable situations faster than he can cope with.

You mentioned giving her new toys to keep her stimulate, which is great, but they need personal time more than toys to keep themselves entertained and you haven't mentioned the amount you play with her... Are you investing enough time into playing with her/ training her and is she chewing on things she knows you don't want her to chew because she /wants/ to be noticed? Does she see your boyfriend chasing her as a fun game? I've known greys to laugh when they get told off by their owners because it's exactly what they were after.

I'm sure other more experienced people will be able to read more into it than I can but I hope that some of what I've said can help :> Also, correct me if I'm wrong about any of this, I'm still learning myself!

[Elaihr]

A huge thanks to both of you for your replies!

I do agree that Milan's methods are despicable, I personally don't like watching his show as it makes me feel uncomfortable. I can't see why they air it, really...

As for the amount of time I spend with her, I usually take her out in the morning (around 7 o clock) and have a short training session (about 15 mins). I've begun clicker training her and it's going ok so far, but I've only just begun so I can't tell for sure what it'll be like in the long run. But, we're doing step-ups and targeting which is going fine at the moment After that I give her lots of praise and let her hang out with me while I prepare her breakfast, then she gets some time in the cage to eat. On most days I'm studying at home, so I just let her eat her breakfast while I'm studying for a bit. When she seems to have eaten enough to wanna do other stuff I usually bring her to the bathroom with me, I always leave the door open for her to get out if she wants to, but she seems to like the steam from the shower so she usually stays with me while I get myself ready to face the day. At this point I either have more reading/studying to do, or I have a lecture. If I stay at home to study she's with me the whole time, I take breaks to walk around the apartment with her, looking at new things, making some new toys and so forth, I think this should be good for her as well as myself (one can't sit still for too long, right?). If I'm not at home she gets some cage time, I believe it's best for her to be in the cage when I'm not around to make sure she's safe.

Bah, to keep things short: she's actually out of the cage most of the time, apart from when I'm not home, which isn't often and not for long periods of time, I usually don't have lectures for more than 3 hours per day, and it's not even every day. The quality of the time she's out of the cage varies though. On some days I have more studies to do than on other days, but I always try to give her two training sessions a day (one in the morning and one before dinner, 15 mins each time), and if I'm home I try to interact with her as much as I can. I don't like studying for too long either so I actually use her as an excuse to get up and do something else for like 20 mins about every 20 minutes (the length of the breaks depends on what we do, if she's just getting scritches it might be 15 mins, if we're making a toy or I give her a shower it'll be up to one hour), so my guess is my studies are suffering more than she is At least I hope so, 'cause otherwise they're suffering in vain (I'm doing my best to keep her happy, more so than I try keeping my studying at an appropriate level, heh...). I don't think she's the most playful parrot around, but then again she's a Pionus so I don't think she's "supposed" to be as playful as, say, a caique. She's an excellent flyer though!

As for my boyfriend, I really don't know where he's gotten his ideas from, on the average day there's no problem but if he's had a bad day he's extremely impatient, and I kinda believe that's why he acts like this. Keeping animals in control by keeping them "submissive" due to fear of being punished is probably a quick fix, 'cause sure, it's works temporarily, but I don't think it's a valid solution in the long run, at least not if you want a happy, healthy relationship with your pet (regardless of what species they are).

And about the angry stare; I've read somewhere that parrots are very good at feeling "vibrations" and moods, and that they react to facial expressions. Obviously she can growl herself, so I guess growling is one way to show you're disappointed in something, but actually roaring seems a bit... Excessive, doesn't it?

Again, thank you for your replies, I will get back to read this thread again either tomorrow or later tonight, and once again consider what you've written

[Pajarita]

I have to tell you that reading what your boyfriend does and believes has me VERY worried. He believes in dominance, aggression, intimidation and absolute control and that doesn't bode well for anybody or any animal living with him. His behavior toward your little bird might not have consequences right now but it will. Parrots are incredibly patient when it comes to their living conditions but their patience does not last forever and some will turn to aggression while others will turn to self-destructive behaviors like plucking and self-mutilation. What he is doing is not teaching her anything but that he cannot be trusted. She doesn't know why he is doing what he does because, in her mind, she is not doing anything wrong. Parrots chew, it's a completely natural and instinctual behavior and you can't reverse hundreds of thousands of years of evolution by scaring a bird into it.

He needs to learn about parrots social structures and how they 'see' things because, obviously, he doesn't know the first thing about them so I urge you to talk him into taking some courses (they have them online) or you will end up with a very depressed and mal-adjusted bird in your hands and fighting with your boyfriend all the time because of it.

As to how to dissuade her from going or chewing what she is not supposed to... well, if there is a method, nobody knows it. I have zero issues with my birds but they live in a room completely bird proof (edges and moldings all covered with protection, natural tree branches, etc). When it comes to parrots, you can't expect them to 'obey' because they simply don't, they are not 'wired' for it. In the wild, no parrot obeys another parrot. It's the way it is. The 'dominance' theory became a myth a long time ago but, for some particular reason which escapes me, people are still repeating it. What works with parrots is re-direction so, when it comes to the TV, I would just cover it whenever she is out. As to the headphones, wear a hoodie when you have them on. It's no use 'fighting' parrots' natural behaviors even if we find them undesirable, it's much easier on everybody to find the solution that will make them not want to do what we don't want them to do.

[Wolf]

Your boyfriend is wrong !!!

Your boyfriend is abusive !!!

Your boyfriend has no business being around any animal as long as he adheres to his present frame of reference as far as animals go. Experience has shown me that in most if not all cases that a person who abuses animals will abuse humans as well.

I sincerely hope that this is not yet the case here.

[Elaihr]

Hi Pajarita and Wolf,

Thanks for your input! Before I decided on bringing Penny home, I had several talks with him, and at that point he said he did not know much about birds as he'd never had any before (his sisters had budgies when he was a kid, but they were just kept in a cage and were never tame or let outside of the cage). So we actually looked at Michael's training videos together, and I explained to him that with parrots and birds in general you have to be gentle, they're fragile physically and you can't take their tameness for granted as people do with dogs. In my experience, you do better approaching parrots in a slow and steady manner, rather than rushing things. He didn't seem to have any problem with this whatsoever, before we brought her home, or I would never have done it.

It went okay the first week, he tried to socialize with her, but he disliked her screaming when he got home. In her previous home they had a dog that went nuts when someone came home, and she used to join in. They encouraged this however, calling her their guarding dog and gave her treats, so this behavior was being promoted by them. I thought that if she stayed with us long enough it might eventually calm down (with that said, I'm perfectly aware she'll never be inaudble, but at least she may just make a few loud calls instead of screaming for an hour as she thinks she'll get a treat for it). Anyway, now she is actually more quiet when he comes home (or when I or someone else do), so I guess I was partly right. The only problem is, I think this was what made my boyfriend get frustrated, he has a very stressful job so I don't think he appreciated the ruckus he met when he came home. Like I said, it's calmer now, but I think it did not make a very good first impression, even though I told him about the case before we brought her home. It was at this point that our arguments started, and he's been wanting a quick way to end unwanted behavior since then.

We actually had another argument yesterday, after I started this thread. I had told him very strictly the night before that, that his methods would not work if he wanted a good relationship with her, so when he came home yesterday he was trying his best to make it work. It started out okay, they even did a bit of training together, he gave her treats and scritches, so I thought maybe it would work out. However, after he had been home for a few hours, she decided it was time to try chewing on one of our plants (it's a non-toxic one, but still don't want her to destroy it), so he went there to get her. And as usual when taken from an activity she doesn't wanna stop doing, she nipped him.

I don't know if this makes any difference at all, but she does step onto your hand at first, without nipping. It's when she's already on the hand that she starts nipping, she won't break the skin, but it still hurts, and to someone inexperienced it's probably not very nice. She also growls, she sounds just like this little guy;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kYTyW3-p_os

Anyway, when she nipped him this time, he got really upset. He told me he felt frustrated because he had been trying to be good to her since he came home and he really wanted it to work out, but he just couldn't take it when she nipped him. Also she had been more cuddly with me than with him, on some occassions she flew to me instead of staying with him. He didn't do anything at all except from being very sad and frustrated (no worries), so I'm happy he finally understood that he can't run amok in our apartment as it will make her unable to trust him. However, he has displayed such behavior before and I told him I think that might be why she's less trusting of him than of me, and I think he understood, but he was still very frustrated as he (nor I) can't figure out a way to make the nipping stop. It bothers him more than it bothers me though.

Also, it's not the chewing on things that's bothering us, I know parrots need to chew and so does he (I've told him millions of times before getting her, and after). The only issue is when she nips us when we take her away from places/activities she's not allowed to be/do. And like I said, the nipping doesn't start when we reach for her, she gets onto our hands without fuss, but when we pull away from said object/activity/whatever she'll start nipping our hands (the one she's sitting on), often growling like the Pionus in the video. And this is the behavior I'd like to stop :S

Lastly, about my boyfriend's previous behavior; It seems like he's finally understood his behavior was not a solution, but that it only made it worse. He's still frustrated though, as being gentle apparently doesn't stop the nipping either (I've never been abusive to her and she nips me too if I take her away from places), we simply do not know what to do about it

Luckily these traits only come out when he's extremely stressed out and frustrated about his situation, I still don't think it's okay, but he is working on his self control. So, don't worry about it, it's not that bad, he won't hurt a living being on purpose (he can't even kill insects), only by accident or out of ignorance, like, if he doesn't understand something is hurtful. Like in this case with Penny, he probably did not see that chasing after her and causing a ruckus could be hurtful. The slap on her beak was very light (he knows they're fragile beings). The reason why I can't explain this properly is probably due to linguistic barriers, English isn't my native language so I don't know what this would be called... Do you know what I mean if I say, it's when you place your index finger under the tip of your thumb, then add pressure so that your index finger releases from the thumb, with a little "snap"? Like that, but not hard. He did that on her beak to make her stop nipping, I told him it wouldn't work (and it didn't), and he's promised to not resort to such methods again.

Other than that it's mostly words, when he gets frustrated he says a ton of sh*t. I still think it's important to take it seriously though, even if people don't mean what they say when they're angry, 'cause it's not okay to say just anything just because you're pissed. Which is partly why I'm writing here, I want to be as well informed as possible to have something to break down his arguments if he gets unreasonable.

[sidech]

Hello,

Obviously your boyfriend doesn't have a clue what he's doing but you seem to have a good logic about all this and you apply the right techniques.

If I were you, I would simply accept the fact that for now, she will be YOUR bird. And I would keep him away from her. For his own sake, for yours abd for the birds. He is going to ruin all your chances of having a psychologically stable bird AND a good relationship with her. This is no joke. His way of doing things is completely harmful. Birds are very sensitive to stress and chaos, and that is what he carries with him. Eventually you will have a big problem on your hand, either plucking or aggression, or both.

It takes about 1 year for a bird to completely settle in their new environment. When the time comes, and the relationship and teust is established, maybe then your boyfriend can try to participate. That is if your bird still allows him...

Good luck. This is not easy being torn between an animal and a lover !

[Wolf]

I really do understand the problems you are dealing with and definitely do not envy your position. I can't deal with your boy friend for you so my last words on that are simply that anyone who willingly takes their frustrations out on an animal that can't effectively defend itself from the attack, especially something as much smaller than him as a bird, needs serious psychological help.

Now on to better and brighter things.

you are right in removing Penny from things or places that she should not be even though she doesn't like it. You might try bribery in conjunction with moveing her. By this , I mean show her a favored treat then pick her up still letting her see the treat, move her to where you want her to be and then give her the treat. This or a slight variation of it may prove helpful.

As for the screaming, I read and reread your posting and then did it again to be sure. You need to tell Penny "NO" . Now there are those that say that she doesn't understand this but, I beg the difference. You can't get into a shouting math with her as it will only make this worse. So how to tell her "NO" , when she is screaming? Take a look at how Penny says no. She turns her back on you. I think that if you stand in front of her and deliberately turn your back on her that she will stop screaming quickly. It may not, but is worth the attempt. I have a 15 yr. old Amazon who is totally psychotic, due to abuse and it is the only thing that stops her from hours of insane screaming.

Good luck and let me know if this helps you at all.

[Michael]

The bird wants to go to those places and you guys are being the jerk that makes bird not be able to be there. Not only something that causes the nip but also makes you bad in the eyes of the parrot. The best solution is to prevent the problem in the first place. Training, toys, busyness, time management...