Biting Finger when stepping up?

[Wolf]

On my last post on this I was lust talking of the cuff so to speak and really wanted to say more but my thoughts were getting all tangled up, so I stopped.
Humans do see the body language of others, but consciously or not, we tend to get it wrong a lot, which is a testament to how much more dependent we have become to verbal communication. It is one of the reasons that I hate talking on phones, I just miss too much. I have watched several documentaries about body language, which is where I get that we misread body language from. I really don't recall what it was called but the last one was really all about interrogation techniques used by both police and military negotiators and interrogators. I t showed a lot of misconceptions about what many facial expressions and body postures meant. It brought in people who were not trained to read these non verbal cues and asked them to respond by answering who was telling the truth or not and an overwhelming number got it wrong most of the time. Now they did this with everyday people from our industrialized societies, I would like to see how it stacks up to other people from less industrialized areas of the world. I think that I know , but would like to see it just to know if I would be right or not.
My Lady gets so mad at me because I will carry on a conversation with her without constantly looking at her. I do look, but it is more like Glancing over to see her and her body language. I am doing this because I am finding that I can hear so much more, by listening to her tones, the rhythm of her speech, it is like listening to what she says and how she says it as well as what she doesn't say and the way that she doesn't say it. The last part is hard to explain but really it just comes down to that there is actually a lot of information included in the blank spaces of what we say and how we do it.
I am thinking that it is a normal evolution of the fact that we as humans are much more dependent on verbal rather than non verbal communication. And again their are animals whose verbal speech carries more information than we can hear, but that they can. for instance a wolf can howl to another wolf and while it sounds exactly the same to us it elicits a totally different response from the other wolf, if you see what I mean.
By observing my birds I am thinking that they use both of these methods to a far greater degree than we humans do. I often hear my birds talking to each other and to me it sounds at times as if the one bird is talking with two voices at the same time, or probably to be more accurate, they are using more than one wavelength at the same time when they speak.
The more I observe them the more I am amazed at what I learn from them.

[Harpmaker]

I suspect that the loss of the use of human body language is related to the cross pollination of different cultures. I saw a documentary many years ago that said that Mayor LaGuardia of New York City(the airport is named for him) spoke 3 languages, and you could tell from behind on silent films which he was using from his body language. That is less common today.

People who are looking for a job sometimes get instruction in what body language to use to appear trust worthy. Things like look the interviewer in the eyes, but not too long. And as Wolf says, horses can be calmed by nonagressive behavior, even though they KNOW a predator when they see one.

And Corsair has decided if she LETS me file her talons it is less traumatic. So no more band-aids. But she had told me in no uncertain terms she didn't want it before biting.

[Wolf]

So does that mean that you may trim Corsair's talons, but only after she bites you?

[Danish]

We've had this particular bird for many years and are quite receptive of her desires. She does wave her foot if she wants us to pick her up, however sometimes she gets annoyed it's not me and is my husband who's picked her up so then quickly changes her mind (this usually only happens when he's picked her up and I'm in the room). She will take a treat even when she's having a spazz on him with all her attack mode in full kilter ( this usually gets her to stop ). So the 'wave' is a sign for us to pick her up her aggression is due to her preference for me. The young bird will fly to follow us but is somewhat clipped and he also will lift his foot to be picked up, when he doesn't want to he also makes that clear... sometimes they both happily wander around behind us. (Once again my daughter thinks this is crazy)
I'm quite certain we can read their signals.
I've also been told that they should step up even sometimes if they don't want to for safety reasons, in case of emergency they will come to either of us if we need to move them to safety.

[Wolf]

True, they should listen to us and step up even if they don't want to because in an emergency you have to be able to get them safely out, but on the other hand I do allow my birds to say that they don't want to step up. This does not mean that I will always accept them saying no when I ask them to step up because I don't. They know that I will listen to them and they know that If I need them to step up that I will ask again and they will step up.
But in an emergency situation, I really don't care what they might want because they will be taken to safety regardless. Thankfully, this has not happened and hopefully won't.

[Pajarita]

Hmmmmmm, I've heard the 'emergency' theory many times when discussions about birds stepping up or not crop up but, in truth, unless you have one or two birds only, I think it's nothing but a rationalization of our desire for control because, I don't know about anybody else but, if there was a fire in my house (the only situation that I can think of when I would have to get all my animals out in a hurry -BTW, I don't worry about the dogs because, with the exception of Mikey which can no longer walk on its own, they follow me wherever I go and the cats all come running when I give the 'dinner' call), I would be so very frantic (smoke and birds don't mix) that I seriously doubt I would take the time to make everybody step up - I would grab a large towel and start stuffing birds in carriers as fast as I could!

[Wolf]

That is exactly what I am saying. They will be taken to safety regardless of what they may or may not want.
I normally accept it when my birds tell me no, when I ask them to step up. Sometimes I have got to do things that require me to be outside of the house or to go to town and when that happens, I insist that they step up and they will, I do what I need to do and then they are free to do pretty much what they want to do. The only reason that I have to insist on their stepping up is for their safety as I have 3 cats that stay in the house all of the time and I will not leave the birds out when I can't keep watch over them.
To me my birds are quite intelligent, sometimes it seems to me that they are more intelligent than some people that I know. I prefer to listen to intelligent beings so I listen to them a lot. Makes my day !

[cml]

This is quite off topic, but very important non the less!

Even counting as little as 3 seconds per bird, if you have a 100 birds (and you have more right?) it will take you 300s (5min) to get them stuffed into carriers. I am pretty sure you will average out on a lot more than 3seconds per bird as well.

A room will hit flashover in as little as 2-3min - your house in another few.
I say this because I care about your birds Pajarita, but the above is not a viable strategy. I would seriously consider making a backup plan, even if it involves releasing them all through the windows. At least they stand a chance that way.

Fire is serious business, and should not be taken lightly. You will not succeed to save all birds by placing them in carriers and you will risk your own life in the process.

To everyone else, please consider making plans for the worst. I know we dont like to think about accidents etc, but the day you need to have prepared for a fire is the day it starts. It CAN happen to anyone, and the price to pay will be terrible if you arent prepared.

Get smoke alarms (more than one if you have a big house), get at least one fire extinguisher (I have two, one in the kitchen - the area most likely to catch fire, and one in the hallway for making our way out down the stairs in our appartment building).
Also, please have your travel carriers/cages available (not stuffed in closets or lockers) so you can easily move your bird into it. Anything less will mean dead birds , and risk of personal injury/death because you linger in a burning building to save the birds.

[Harpmaker]

So does that mean that you may trim Corsair's talons, but only after she bites you?

LOL. I can file ONE today. And another one tomorrow. No trimming-she screams like she's dying if the clippers touch a talon.

Usually "Step up" is fine, but sometimes she wants veto power. I say OK, wait half a second, and ask again, and she steps right up. Not waiting would cost me skin--but the body language is clear. If I ignore it, that's not her problem--or her fault.

[Calthesa]

Just thought I'd give a quick update: Pepper is stepping up! He's still nervous and steps back down immediately, but he's doing it! I bought a clicker and it's really working. Thanks everyone!