Is flooding necessarily bad?

[Elaihr]

Hello!

I have a question regarding flooding, I'm not sure if I understand the terms correctly (English is not my native language) but if I do, flooding pretty much means you do something so often that your parrot will get used to it. Am I way off here?

The reason why I'm asking is because my Blue-headed Pionus Penny was not used to being touched when I got her - her previous owner was a bit afraid of birds so Penny only knew how to step up and she allowed head scritches, but nothing more. While I've had Penny I've tried to get her used to being touched both by usnig positive reinforcement training (for example, I touch her wings/feet/beak/whatever for a few seconds and once she's relaxed she receives a treat for it), but I've also tried touching her like this during the day when we're playing etc, just to get her used to it and show her that it's not a big deal (I never touch her wings, back or belly if she seems excited, don't want her getting overly hormonal).

Do you reckon this method could be considered as "flooding", and is this an okay way to go? Like I said I also do touch-training using positive reinforcement, so this flooding thing isn't the only thing I do. I just thought that by being touched every now and then (I try to keep this to situations where she seems content and happy) she'd get used to it quicker. Does this sound reasonable? Can touching her without giving a treat become a setback in our training, or is it alright as I pay attention to her signals and stop if she seems unwilling?

It's been going alright so far and she seems very relaxed about the whole being-touched-thing, in the beginning she'd back away a bit or freeze, but now she mostly sits calmly while I touch her. The wings are so-so, she's not entirely relaxed about them being touched yet, but she's not flying away either so I don't think we're super far off. She's also more cuddly now, asking for head scritches more frequently than she did at first, but I realise that might not only be because of the training but could just as well be because she's gotten more used to me and her new home (I got her in February).

The reason why I want her to get used to this at all is because I;

1. Want to be able to handle her if anything would happen (vet visit for instance). I prefer having a bird that's already used to being handle rather than one that has to be toweled and connects being held with panic. Doesn't seem pleasant to me.

2. Want to train her to wear a harness, we're already come quite far but I want her to be comfortable with me putting it on entirely, which I doubt she'll be if she's not used to being touched.

As she seems pretty comfortable I have a hard time imagining I'm doing a lot of things wrong, but I figured I might as well ask as I know training can backfire if done wrong.

Best regards,
Sara & Penny

[Wolf]

Flooding is a type of desensitization therapy and is also referred to as prolonged exposure therapy. It is primarily used to force the patient or in this the bird to face traumatic experiences with the outcome of eliminating the birds fear of the experience. I really do not see any advantage to the amateur trainer and see a tremendous capacity for it misuse. I would recommend that one stays with the slower and less traumatic forms of training.
I work with traumatized birds and I do not even consider using it, at least as of yet, due to the traumatic nature of its use. It is just much to easy to make the situation worse and end of with an even more traumatized bird.
With this explanation of flooding, I will say that for the purposes of training your healthy, non traumatized bird this form of training should never be used, period. It has no advantage other than speed at the risk of harming your bird. Your bird has a long lifespan, so take the time to earn the birds trust and take your time and allow both you and your best friend(bird) to enjoy and look forward to your time together.

[Michael]

Flooding is generally associated with an over-stimulating and inescapable situation. Touching or playing with the bird that doesn't elicit fear or frustration wouldn't be flooding. Wrapping the bird in a towel so it can't get away and force-petting it is flooding.

[Elaihr]

Thank you for your replies! Judging from your definitions of the term flooding, it doesn't seem like what I've been doing, as there hasn't been any forcing involved at all. The only things I've done have been actively training her to get used to touch by first touching, then offering a treat, but then also during playing or cuddling. The only difference between the situations have been that she's not been given a treat after being touched during the latter, instead I've gone back to playing or whatever it was that we were doing. Mins you, I've only done this in situations where she's been doing something fun!

Is this perhaps more like a kind of positive reinforcement training, rather than flooding? Like I said, the situation could be like this (example): we play together, making a toy with wooden beads. I give her some scritches, then proceed to place my hand above her back, touching her only lightly. After a few seconds, I've said "good girl!" then gone back to playing by giving her a bead (big wooden ones, no artificial colouring).

I'm thinking this could be a kind of positive reinforcement, even if its not an edible treat she's being offered I think play or scritches could count as rewards too, right? If not, do you think it may be bad for our training that I've been touching her outside of training sessions where the touch-training has been the focus? During play it's not, play is the main focus, most of the time (a huge majority of the time, maybe 25 mins out of a total of 30) I just let her be and relax.

I'm asking because I want to get the terms figured out, I don't think anything I'm currently doing would be harmful, I'm careful to always consider her moods and reactions, she's also fully flighted so I know she could get away if I did something that scared her. The biggest sign of discomfort she's shown has been taking a few steps away from my hand (and with the harness in the beginning), while sitting on her training perch, and when this has happened I've of course slowed down and taken a step back.

I'm not sure if I understood Wolf's reply correctly, but I thought you meant that flooding is not recommended. What I'm unsure of is wether you considered what I've been doing as flooding or not, if you think it sounds like flooding and flooding is bad, please do tell and I'll just completely quit touching her outside of focused training sessions. I don't wanna do it if it's bad

[Wolf]

I really thought that I was clear that flooding is not recommended as it is forcing the bird to face traumatic experiences especially with not way to escape from it.
please don't read this wrong, I thought I was clear, but apparently I was clear in some respect and would really appreciate it if you could tell me how I was not clear enough as I am trying to get better at expressing these things. I am just an old (60) country boy and sometimes don't say things quite right.
I didn't go into your examples because you know whether you are forcing yourself on your friend or not and you really don't need me to tell you as the bird will because it will try to get away from it.
Touching is perhaps one of the best and greatest tools that you have to reward your bird with especially where scratching the head and neck are concerned because they have a harder time grooming these areas and just love the help. I normally replace using treats quite often with scritches and most of the time my birds are very happy with this although they do like an occasional treat. They do this in the wild for each other and they fly to me to be with me and to get the scritches and I never give a treat for coming to me. My Grey will not do anything for treats, she takes them and throws them on the floor if I am trying to get her to do something. She will take a treat once in a while as long as it is not for doing something.
Play and training are the same thing to a bird. We have this thing where we differentiate play from work although there is really no difference between the two in terms of what the body does and mentally they difference is really only in how we perceive the two. We mark this difference in the physical world with currency and extend this concept to our birds world by the use of treats. Most of us give treats for training and petting for play, although our birds do not normally recognize this distinction. They will happily do either of them for the scratch that says I am happy with you.
Back to flooding. You will find some who will tell you that too long of a training session is flooding and although you get better results usually with shorter sessions it is not flooding. It is just too much input without allowing it to settle in the mind, and can create confusion. Avoid this by keeping session down to 15 to 30 minutes at a time. As long as you bird can let you know that it doesn't want to do a thing and you listen to the bird and do not attempt to force it to do the thing, I cannot call it flooding and further see no harm being done.
You are present with your bird and you are therefor the best person to judge your birds responses. You are quite capable as long as you know what flooding is to decide if what you are doing is or is not flooding. You are the best person to decide if what you are doing or planning to do even approaches flooding. The best that I can tell you is that if it makes you uncomfortable ,stop reconsider it and if you are still not comfortable with it don't do it.
Does this help to clarify or have I just confused things ?

[Pajarita]

The best explanation of flooding I've found when it comes to birds is the one given by Barbara Heidenreich: "A process of teaching an animal to cope with a situation it fears (I would add 'and/or dislikes'). The process is generally traumatic and relentless. The animal learns nothing it does will change the outcome and learns to submit or tolerate the situation."

So, basically, anything we do repeatedly and without any other result but for the parrot to accept something they don't want to accept is flooding. Most people think it involves some sort of force but it doesn't have to. For example, I believe that the most recommended technique of ignoring a bird's screams for company is a form of flooding because we are 'teaching' the bird in a 'relentless and traumatic way' that no matter how he much he might need and ask for it, he won't get it so he better 'submit' and shut up.

Now, teaching them to allow touch does not necessarily have to be done through flooding. If you start by doing something the bird has no problem with (like scratching its head) and, when the bird is enjoying it, you move your finger lower to do its neck or cheeks but stop completely when the bird lifts his head or moves, that's not flooding. Personally, I've never tried to get a bird to get used to my touch, if they want it, they get it but always when, how and only as much as they want it and if it takes 5 years to get to that point, that's how long it will take and that's all there is to it. This is mostly because, when they trust and love you, they will want you to give them scritches although not necessarily for you to touch their bodies. There are species that simply do not enjoy your touching them anywhere else but their heads and, although they might learn to resign themselves to it, they don't enjoy it. It's kind of like touching another person's body... touching people who love you and you love back is pleasurable for both parties while been touched by a stranger or a mere acquaintance is highly uncomfortable and stressful.

But, my dear, touching the back is a no-no with birds. And you don't need to be able to do this to fit the bird with a harness.

And don't worry about taking her to the vet, even the mean ones that don't love me cling to my shoulder when they go to the vet (better is the evil known that the good that is yet to be known).

[Elaihr]

No worries Wolf, it is probably not you that are not clear, it was more likely something in my question or interpretation of what you wrote, like I think I've mentioned English isn't my native language and so misunderstanding sometimes happen, not your fault at all

I was just confused because I was wondering if what I did could be considered as flooding or not, but as I thought more on it I really don't think it is, as she's never seemed particularly uncomfortable about anything I've done. And like you say I guess touch and play can also be rewards

About there being a difference in play and training I actually think there's one thing, although for the parrot there's probably no difference. To a human though, I guess the trainin is more result/purpose focused while play is just time to have fun with no other goal than that. But I guess that in the birds eyes most of it is just to be and have a good time

And thanks Pajarita! I've tried not to touch her back but I thought I needed her to be relaxed about having my hands above her back at least, in order to put on the harness. But I see your point, luckily the hardest part about harness training seems to be putting it over the head, which is a place she already likes it when I touch. Phew! Convenient.

But this no-touch-back-thing has me wondering, I know some people are flipping their parrots on their back and have them lay in their hands like that, that's impossible to do without touching their backs.. Would you recommend one stays away from this kind of training?

[Pajarita]

No, that's different. Baby conures and some other small species feed on their backs when they are babies in the nest so, to them, laying on their back has no sexual connotations, it's our caressing or touching them there when they are standing up that has it. Parrots in the wild only touch another parrot in the back when they 'cover' them (sexual intercourse).

[Elaihr]

Aha! That makes sense. I guess the Pionus chicks don't lay on their backs much in the wild, compared to a Senegal or Green Cheek?? I've gotten the impression that Pi's aren't as fond of this as adults as some other species, nor of a lot of touch besides the head. I've seen very few videos of Pi's laying on their backs, but from what I've read about them it doesn't come as natural to them as to some other species.. You have Pi's Pajarita, right? What's your experience from this?

[Pajarita]

I no longer do, I had two, both older adults, but both were pretty much hands-off birds although they were actually quite sweet-tempered. I only do the 'on your back' trick with my female Senegal and then VERY seldom at that as I don't think it's something that actually benefits her -I am more of a more birdy lifestyle for the birds instead of a pet lifestyle but my grandkids like it because I sing to her the same lullaby I used to sing to them when babies (and rock her a bit) so they ask me to do the 'Arrorro baby' to her -the Spanish song refrain goes "Arrorró mi niño, arrorró mi sol, arrorró pedazo de mi corazón" (lullaby my child, lullaby my sun, lullaby piece of my heart).