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[Newby]

Hello, I've adopted an African Grey, and I am a new bird owner. I know nothing about his past, and I knew nothing about training. Through many bites I found out that my bird new nothing either. We are learning together He is now target trained, eating healthy veggies, eating from my hand, loves to be where I am, and after seven months steps onto my left hand. I was so excited to get him to step up so I could transport him on my hand. Anyway, in my excitement about the new step up I decided to have him "ladder". He looks at my right hand and shakes with fear, and I think a bite may be around the corner What is that about? Has anyone else experienced this? Do I need to start from scratch with my right hand? Charlie would appreciate any advice on this. Thanks ahead of time! Newby

[Wolf]

Actually no you shouldn't have to train him at all to step over to the other hand. Tell me if you will why do you wish to ladder him? Please also give me some background information on how you went about training him. I am concerned as there is no valid reason that this bird should be shaking in fear. Please the more detail the better, because this needs to be repaired.

[Newby]

Hi, thank you for your reply. This is long so here it goes. In the beginning of Feb my son, who has been around his wife's grandpa's birds, bought an African Grey off of Craigslist. He picked "Charlie" up, meeting the owner in a parking lot, and she told my son her husband had to go back to Iraq and she did not like the bird because she was afraid of him. She said he is three years old and likes men only. After going over to visit my son on several occasions I noticed that Charlie was not enjoying his new home, he would sit on the top of the cage, or in the cage and shake. There are three little ones and a hyper dog running around their house always. I told the kids I would take Charlie and do research to figure out how to help him. When I got him here it was obvious he liked men better than women, because he adored my husband. I started looking up anything and everything about diet, training, and taming. It took a long time to get him to even come close to me. I bought Micheal's book and found his methods were the ones that worked with Charlie. I've found it encouraging to have people tell me to have patience, and it has payed off. I expected results too fast and was frustrated. I thought all birds should just step up, but Charlie would shake, lunge, and bite whenever I asked him to step up. I started target training him at that point and it was great fun to see the light bulb go off in his head when he figured out what he was suppose to do. From there I used a dowel to ask him to step up and he started by touching it with his right foot, getting a click and a treat. Long story short, months later he was stepping onto the dowel and then I used my hand. I noticed that he would not step onto my right hand one day when I wanted to take him to his play gym and I had something in my left hand. I put my right hand up to him and he looked at it arching his body toward my hand with his feathers flat. I decided to see if he would ladder from my left to the right. He stepped onto my left hand and then I put my right hand up to him and he started to shake, just looking at it as if it was something foreign. I have started using the dowel again and he is putting his left foot on it and expecting a click, and a treat. He acts like he did when I started at first. When I got him his wings were clipped on one side. I took him to the vet and she evened them up. I want him to have the freedom of flight, but that is going to take forever I think. He can't get away from me by flying off, but he does turn his back on me when he has had enough of something. I try to keep his training sessions to about ten minutes at a time. I don't know if he was mistreated or if it's just his breed? I'm truly at a loss because I thought we would sail along after he learned the things he knows now. Thank you from the bottom of my heart for answering me. Newby

[Wolf]

I can't tell you why, but he is clearly afraid of your right hand. I can tell you for a fact that this has nothing to do with his species, nor is it a trait for any parrot species, which leaves me with the thought that it is from some form of abuse as being the origin of this behavior.
I read that you spent time training and that you keep the sessions down to 10 minutes at a time and all of this is good, but how much time has been put into just bonding with the bird? It may well be more than I am thinking that has been done, but I don't know. Be assured that I have no intent to detract from the time and effort that you have already put into this bird. I think that you have done well, but I am trying to listen to the bird through your words and it suggests to me that perhaps he needs more time bonding with you. This is most often simply an exercise in which you talk to the bird and offer the occasional treat while talking to him. The purpose is to reassure him that you are his friend and to gain his trust, since they do not just give us their trust blindly like a dog or cat would. A couple of 15 minute sessions per day would help out a lot. you could offer the treats to him only from the offending hand and work up to step up using that hand.

[Newby]

Thank you, I've suspected that he was not treated well in his past. Fortunately he does enjoy being with me and my husband. We try to take him with us into whatever room we are in just to spend time with him. We talk to him a lot, but he still shakes like crazy at times. I will definitely be more patient and be more aware of the bonding process. I do give him his treats from my right hand as I have MS and my left hand does not have normal feeling in it. I'm very clumsy with getting the treats to him with my left hand. I would consider this a problem, but he won't step onto my husband's right had either. My goal for Charlie is for him to be comfortable around people. I hate to see him so fearful. I'm thinking it'll take a lot of time and encouragement. I have a hard time allowing him to get to close to me because he bites at toes, legs, arms, whatever is there by him. I think it's time to start trusting him more and letting him get as close as he wants. I appreciate your help. I'm excited to have this forum to turn to for help! Thank again, Newby

[Wolf]

Charlie could be shaking from either fear or from excitement, but coupled with the biting, I tend to think that it would be from fear. While letting Charlie get as close to you as he wants to is definitely a goal to reach for, please understand that a bite from an African Grey can be a very serious thing so until the biting has stopped do not allow him to get to close to your face. Please, before you do anything that could get you bitten again or more, lets look at this more closely and find out why this is occurring and what it is going to take to fix it.
Let's see if I have this straight in my head.
You got Charlie in Feb and he is 3 yrs. old. You were told that he only liked men, and he did accept your husband right away. Allow me to correct myself. Your son got Charlie in Feb., you got him from your son as Charlie would come out and sit on his cage and shake. Your son has young children and a very active small dog, which probably contributed to Charlie being fearful. Once you got Charlie, he seemed to accept your husband right away and it has taken several months for you to get to where you are now. You have done some target training and are doing some clicker training now. Charlie has been to the vet.
At present, Charlie still acts fearful and shakes a lot, he bites you a lot and showed a marked aversion to the right side of both your husband and yourself.
I understand that you have spent a great deal of time and effort into learning all about Charlie and how to address all of his needs, including diet, training and taming. And with the problems that Charlie seems to have, you have done a wonderful job and made a lot of progress with him. Unfortunately Charlie needs more, so here we are and I will do my best for you and Charlie.

I mean no disrespect, but I am going to start with the most basic things and go from there. You are my window into Charlie's world and since I can't be there you are my eyes and ears so I depend on you to guide me along. There are so many things that affect a parrots world and with a Grey, it is even more so as they are both extremely intelligent and highly emotional birds.
What is the size of cage that Charlie lives in and where is it placed in regards to walls, windows and general activity in your home? Would you please tell me about lighting that he is exposed to, by this I mean sunlight and artificial lights. When does Charlie get up in the morning and when does he go to bed? You researched his diet, but could you please tell me what you are feeding him and when you feed it to him? How much time each day is Charlie out of his cage and how much time is one on one with you and with your husband ?
At this time, these are my specific questions, but could you please also describe to me a typical day in the life of Charlie? I am trying to get a good picture of Charlie's life and world. I also have a Congo African Grey Parrot and I know from living with her that no amount of research could have ever prepared me for the things that I have had to learn about her, just to give her the chance of living a happy life. I have three other species of parrots, two of whom are also needy birds, requiring a lot of hands on attention, but my Grey is by far the most complex of them all. As much as I love all of my birds, my Grey holds a very special place in my heart and mind.
Anyway, if you could provide me with this information, I think that I will have enough to help you to put things back on track for a good relationship with Charlie.

[Pajarita]

Is your husband a leftie? Because I read accounts from two separate and very well regarded (by me and others) avian behaviorists (not all avian behaviorists are good and avian vets know less about behavior than most owners) that parrots often 'dislike' our non-dominant hand so I am thinking that either your husband (whom he liked right away) or his previous owner (the soldier that went to Iraq) was a leftie and he is used to this hand more than the right. But, leaving that aside, I am afraid that your parrot still has deep and unresolved trust issues and has not bonded properly with you. Training is great but it's not the alpha and omega of parrot keeping. Bonding and good husbandry are. And good husbandry has a very direct effect on their emotional wellbeing and that's why Wolf is asking all these questions about his cage, diet, schedule, etc. Let me explain a bit further... A fearful bird does not do well been moved from one room to another, he needs to feel first of all 100% secure and that is only achieved with his feeling safe in the familiar environment (different ones mean having to make sure first in every one of them that there is no danger and that's means chronic anxiety). This means your staying in the room where his cage is and not him coming with you all over the house (this is temporary and only until he feels safe in your care), it also means a cage with perches at your eye level or higher, never lower, and placed against a wall or with something covering its back (height is safety from ground predators and having a wall behind them allows them to relax because, this way, they know that danger can only come from the front and they have that covered because they can see it coming). Good quality light (full spectrum with CRI 94+ and Ktemp 5000 to 5500) and a solar schedule mean a healthy endocrine system and that means good sleep, healthy appetite, good mood because of their effect on the release and reception of both the 'happy' hormone (serotonin -acts like cocaine and used for conditions like depression, chronic anxiety, social phobia, etc) and the 'reward' hormone (dopamine -conditions like schizophrenia, ADHD, restless leg syndrome and even Parkinson's). Diet has also a strong effect on birds with the free-feeding of high protein having negative effects on them as well as the lack of naturally-derived nutrients (not only vitamins and minerals but also phytonutrients which are only found in fresh food). Lack of flight causes chronic anxiety because we are talking about prey animals whose ONLIEST predator avoidance mechanism is flight so a grounded bird will always be an anxious bird (imagine yourself living in the same room with a tiger, the tiger might be old and toothless but you would still be anxious, wouldn't you?). Flight is also the only way their bodies have to dissipate bad hormones in their bloodstream (stress and sexual) so a bird which doesn't fly take a looooooong time to get rid of them. Strict daily routines that do not change because it's a weekend or we are tired or sick are VERY important because they give the parrot a sense of control over their own life (essential to a fearful bird). People tend to forget that parrots are not from hierarchical social groups and that they all belong to undomesticated species, they think of them as dogs with wings but they are not like dogs at all. They don't understand the concept of obedience or pleasing another being, they all make their own decisions and this is completely taken away when held in captivity because they depend on us for everything, so when you establish a daily routine, the parrot learns it and knows to anticipate an action at a certain time of the day and, when this action actually takes place, it comforts them, it gives them a sense of control ("Aha! It happened exactly when and as I predicted it would!"). Your son's household was terrible for a gray. Mind you, I am not blaming them but grays are highly sensitive birds and suffer more deeply than other species when placed in such an environment. They like a quiet life, constant closeness with their human and no change. They are not easy birds to keep as they put a huge burden on our shoulders. But, when you achieve a bond and a rapport with them, it's VERY rewarding.

So, if I were you, I would put him on a good diet, a good light schedule, a steady routine and work on bonding with him (company without expectations, treats, etc) and on reassuring him (stay in his room, make the cage 'safe', establish strict daily routines, etc) and forget about training him for a while.

[Newby]

Thank you both for your replies. I have two pages open, so hopefully I will cover all of the inquiries, sorry if I miss something.

First I will tell you where he spends the majority of his day. His cage is in our dining room. It sits in a corner partially exposed to a window. My husband made him a climbing tree out of Manzanita wood. He is able to see into the living room and the kitchen from his cage. His cage size is about 3 ft wide, 3 ft deep, and 4 ft high. He climbs from the top of the cage to the tree by a rope thing I bought off of Amazon. He has a "sleeping" cage in a separate room, and at night around 7:30 he is ready to go to bed. The room is dark and due to the fact that we live in dry Arizona he has a vaporizer going at night. I open the curtains and let him get up around 7:30 to 8:00 in the morning. After he stretches his wings and legs he climbs out onto the door of the cage. He poops a huge amount and then I have him step onto my "left" hand and take him to his big cage, or into the kitchen with me. I usually have my coffee and empty the dishwasher while he watches me. We will do a short training session, and then he gets fresh vegetables for breakfast. I own a vacation rental, so some days he stays in the cage while I take care of the condo, and some days he just hangs out with me. If he stays in his cage after breakfast I don't normally bother him to come back out. Most of the time he comes out of his cage and calls to me with a "yahoo", I then go get him and take him with me while I do whatever. I try to train with him again in the afternoon. He gets almond bits, walnut bits, etc. for treats. I give him organic pellets (the one from Bird Tricks, I think I'll send it back because he does not like them) in the afternoon to munch on, he never gets a seed diet. In the evening when my husband is home he sits in the kitchen with us while we eat dinner and then when it's time for bed he gets a tsp of scrambled egg (four egg whites with one egg yolk) mixed with spinach, or whatever green I have in the fridge. He has a play gym in our bedroom. I put him in there when the grand babies (10 of them) are here. He can see the kids in the back of our property, but he is not in danger of getting startled by being in his cage where there is too much action.

I wanted you to know too, he has not actually bitten us for months. He only looks like he is going to bite my right hand. I've continued to put the dowel up to him with my right hand and he is touching it with his left foot. He still looks at it weird though.

I appreciate you saying that no amount of research could have prepared you for your Grey. I told my husband that I hope Charlies not some weird case. We have fallen in love with this bird, and I can't wait for the day that he is flying around our house. I'm trying not to set too high of goals, but it's hard not to dream.

Let me know what you think about his lifestyle as it is now. I'll change anything that will help him!
Another goal is to build him an aviary outside. We've already found some stainless steel mesh to use for it. I took him outside with me one time and he HATED it. I will have to work up to that very slowly! (He was in a travel cage that I have, not out loose)

Thank you again!

[Wolf]

Overall, I think that you have done a really great job. I do think that you are feeding too much protein, I know that Greys need a higher amount of protein than most other species of parrot, but I still think that he could do with a lot less of it than you are giving him. I tried to find a list of ingredients for Bird Tricks Organic pellets but I am unable to find such a list. I know that I may be asking too much, but could you copy the list of ingredients from the bag for me? The ingredients need to be listed in the same order as on the bag as they are listed in order of the largest amount to the smallest amount in the food.
It seems to me that with the work that you have put into training and socializing this bird that he should not be quivering in fear. This has me concerned that there is some other reason for this and so I am looking for some reason for it and that is why I am asking for the ingredient list on the pellets. Has he ever been checked for heavy metal poisoning? Or for vitamin deficiencies? I have lived in various places in Arizona and I know that in many places the water is not very good so where does he get his water from?
From the way it was written in earlier posting, I thought that he was still biting you rather frequently and you corrected this misconception of mine, and I thank you for that as it helps a lot to know that this is not the case. Could you tell me more about Charlie's shaking and what is going on when he starts shaking. I realize that it is not a constant thing but it does seem to me to be unusual, especially with the information you gave me in your last post. It could be fear based, or it could just be him getting excited about something or it could be related to his diet or some medical reason and I am just trying to figure it out.
As for the original reason for this post, Charlie acting fearful about stepping up to the right hand, I think that just being patient with him while working with him on stepping up on that side will get him past his hesitation in due time. Parrots have a long memory and it is possible that he remember something bad occurring to him while on that side, if that is the case then patience, persistence and time are the only answer to his reluctance.

[Newby]

Okay, here it goes. Feed Your Flock ingredients: Brown Rice, Millet hulled, Whole Barley, Alfalfa Leafs, Sunflower seeds, Sesame seeds unhulled, Buckwheat hulled, Quinoa, Carrot powder, Spinach Leaf powder, Dandelion leaf powder, Purple Dulse, Kelp, Rose Hips powder, Nettle, Orange peel powder, Lemon powder, Rosemary whole leaf, Cayenne ground, Red Chili peppers crushed.

Since you are familiar with Arizona, we live in Flagstaff where the water is exceptionally good, I think. Charlie came from the Valley where the water is usually horrible. We do not have a good Avian Vet in town, I have to take him to Phoenix which is 120 miles away. His owner's, before my son, were actually from Iraq and had to go back. Who knows what his diet or water were like.

I am listening to you very carefully, and I think you are onto something with the shaking. Today I payed attention to exactly when he shakes. I noticed his chest shakes when I am approaching him to get him. I think he is excited, which I have not put together, because when I first got him I know for a fact that his shaking was from fear. He has learned to whistle Amazing Grace. When I whistle it his feathers are tight to his body and his head is a little low, he doesn't move until I'm done, then he does this "whoo whoo", and I say "thank you Charlie", then he will whistle it. I've always assumed that that stance was him being a little excited, but now I think he is just paying close attention.

I am going to keep working with him on the step up onto the right hand. I guess this is an unusual situation that may just prepare me for more unusual situations that I have to be creative with in finding solutions. I need the encouragement, because I have felt very alone with this journey. I used to own horses. I got my first horse over thirty years ago, before children. My daughter asked me if I did this much research on the horses as I am on parrots. I forgot about it, but the answer was "oh yea".

Let me know what you think about the protein thing. I don't think I know what foods are high in protein.

Thank you, for being a good parrot advocate! Newby