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reducing food--as training method

Discuss the methods and techniques of clicker training, target training and bonding. These are usually the first steps in training a young parrot.

Re: reducing food--as training method

Postby marie83 » Sat Nov 08, 2014 7:42 am

Pajarita wrote:They are innocent living beings that depend on us - would you make your child go hungry so he is 'more receptive' to learning a trick to entertain you?! SHEESH! I am SOOOOOO disappointed in all of you!


Sorry just saw this comment but yes I would ration a childs food where possible. Its ridiculous to think we should allow them to eat anything they fancy. Would I send my child to bed with no dinner- probably as many people do if they don't eat what they are given. Is that deemed as cruel? Well I don't hear people saying so tbh. That's far more extreme as nobody here is talking about making their birds miss an entire meal.
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Re: reducing food--as training method

Postby Hookturn » Sat Nov 08, 2014 8:30 am

Some of the responses to my comments are interesting considering I never said anything about depriving a bird of anything. In fact, my bird gets more than he would without training. He's free fed veggies beans etc all day. Than we have a short training session where he gets a few treats, then dinner. I just suggested that finding a particular time of day when your bird is motivated is a useful tool.

If the question was whether I would ever manage my birds food if he started gaining weight, then the answer for me is yes. Just as I would manage my daughters eating if she were at an unhealthy weight. Does this equate to "deprivation"? No. It could be as simple as reducing high fat foods and unceasing healthier options. We are,after all, responsible for our birds helth including their weight.
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Re: reducing food--as training method

Postby liz » Sat Nov 08, 2014 9:18 am

Sorry about that. We see reducing food and freak out.

In the wild, well fed animals play. A well fed kid will do about anything for a piece of candy (sunflower seed). You could have him practice for desert.
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Re: reducing food--as training method

Postby Hookturn » Sat Nov 08, 2014 10:32 am

Essentially he is practicing for dessert. It's just that dessert comes before dinner.
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Re: reducing food--as training method

Postby Wolf » Sat Nov 08, 2014 10:48 am

Hookturn wrote:Some of the responses to my comments are interesting considering I never said anything about depriving a bird of anything. In fact, my bird gets more than he would without training. He's free fed veggies beans etc all day. Than we have a short training session where he gets a few treats, then dinner. I just suggested that finding a particular time of day when your bird is motivated is a useful tool.

If the question was whether I would ever manage my birds food if he started gaining weight, then the answer for me is yes. Just as I would manage my daughters eating if she were at an unhealthy weight. Does this equate to "deprivation"? No. It could be as simple as reducing high fat foods and unceasing healthier options. We are,after all, responsible for our birds helth including their weight.


Thank you for this as this is what I thought you were saying.
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Re: reducing food--as training method

Postby Pajarita » Sat Nov 08, 2014 12:40 pm

Marie, when people talk about an animal been more receptive to training because they are hungry and the reward is getting food, you are talking about a HUGE lack of empathy and a HUGE control/power trip. Have you ever heard of dogs or horses having to wait for their dinner so they can be more receptive to training? No, you haven't. Dogs and horses are trained in the middle of the day, after their breakfast and well before their dinner (if they eat twice a day). It's actually counter-productive to train an animal when it's hungry and the only motivation for performing is the food they will get for it. Animals, like people, cannot learn well when they are hungry.

The reason why people use it with birds (see note below) is because birds don't feel the need to please anybody, humans or their 'leaders', so the only way of ensuring a consistent response is to force it - thus, hunger been a great motivator. Otherwise, given a parrot a choice (and that means self-confidence, flight, outside a cage, etc), he/she will only do what you ask when he/she feels like it. Humans tend to be very controlling and want all their pets to obey them all the time perfectly regardless of the situation, time of the day, animal's own volition or mood and whether they (the humans) deserve the obedience or not. And parrots not been hard-wired for obedience present a problem for the human who needs the immediate gratification of show of power over the 'inferior' animal. Thus, the food management technique.

Note: people used to do it (and I am sure they still do) with canaries, they would not feed them for an entire day or more and when they were starving, they would put their hands in the cages with food on the palm so the bird, desperate for food, would perch on the hand. They learned but it's a despicable thing way of getting an animal to do anything!

Now, let's not confuse weight management with food management because bird people are now using them indistinctly, but they are two completely different things. Weight management means exactly that: managing weight. It consists of switching food around (like low carb items instead of high carb), not free-feeding, reducing portions and increasing frequency in order to keep a faster metabolism, feeding fiber items when hungriest and carb and protein later, allowing for exercise, etc. It's done solely for the bird's benefit and I practice it all the time and have been doing it for many years. Food management, on the other hand, is nothing but a euphemism for 'get the animal to perform no matter what and, if you have to, make it hungry", it's done by reducing portions without making up for the quantity taken away, eliminating or delaying a meal, etc. and it's done solely for the human's benefit. One is good, the other one is not. And birds that learn under food management can end up with problems; the most common one been that the bird reverts to baby begging behavior almost all the time he/she is with a human -which might sound like a very insignificant thing to put up with but, in reality, it's not because it means the bird is under severe distress.

I am all for training birds. I do teach my birds certain commands and they all learn whatever I want them to but I do it the same way I do it with my dogs, cats, children, grandchildren -and husbands :lol: The commands are all necessary for cohabiting (or, in the case of humans, simple good manners or consideration for others) and the teaching is done when the occasion arises and through repetition, consistence, persistence and positive reinforcement. None of my animals gets a treat for doing something right (well, the wild-caught might at the beginning but then I wean them out of it), they do it because they want to. And the treats or food are NEVER directly related to performance. Food is their right and providing it is my obligation and not to be used as a way of getting something I want out of them.
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Re: reducing food--as training method

Postby Hookturn » Sat Nov 08, 2014 2:17 pm

I agree with a lot of what Pajarita said in terms of limiting food for performance. I don't believe that a bird should go hungry just for the sake of training.

That said, I disagree with her view of using food as a motivator. From what Pajarita said, she's just using a different positive reinforcement that's not food. It doesn't make it better, just different. And it's not that the food is the end all be all, its just a way of teaching. Same with my dog. I taught him commands that started with food but that was just to learn the procedure. Now he does the same things for scratches and kind words. I find the same with my bird so far. I hardly ever reward a step-up with anything other than a kind word or head scratch. But it took a few treats to facilitate the behavior.

As for what some consider "mindless tricks", I find training fun. And based on my parrots body language, which I've come to know pretty well, he likes it too. We have a fun time interacting in that way. As we do in others ways but it's just part of the complete picture.

But don't kid yourself that just becaus you don't use treats as positive reinforcement that you're not training your parrot in essentially the same way as those who use food. You might believe that your bird is doing what you ask because he "wants to" but in reality it's just the preospect of the positive reinforcement regardless of the form it takes that helps them learn. The only difference is that your reinforcement is different the someone else's.
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Re: reducing food--as training method

Postby liz » Sat Nov 08, 2014 3:06 pm

Pajarita, they starve dogs to make them mean enough to fight.
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Re: reducing food--as training method

Postby kannon » Sat Nov 08, 2014 5:27 pm

I started this discussion. My first parrot and I try to read everything to learn.I am not interested in teaching bird tricks. I think teaching a parrot to put a ball thru a hoop, lame but those who suggest these activities say it builds a better relationship with the bird.That's my goal.When I see parrots snuggling with their care takers,I say how wonderful.As I indicated my bird was probably largely ignored in a breeding pen for 9 years and is fearful.
But some on this blog suggested I wait for her(DNA certificate) to come to me.It's working she now takes treats from my fingers.
I think she is a sweet bird,no aggression just fear.I think we will get there.
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Re: reducing food--as training method

Postby Wolf » Sat Nov 08, 2014 8:23 pm

The best thing that you can d to build a good trusting relationship with this bird due to what it has been through is just to spend as much time talking to it and hanging out with it, without making any demands on it while it learns to trust you. A little light training probably wouldn't hurt but the hanging out with it will do the most good.
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