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Terminology: Taming vs. Training

Discuss the methods and techniques of clicker training, target training and bonding. These are usually the first steps in training a young parrot.

Terminology: Taming vs. Training

Postby Michael » Wed Mar 03, 2010 10:02 pm

I just wanted to bring up what I consider to the difference between taming and training. I'm not really interested in the dictionary definition but more about what techniques apply to each.

I consider training to be the process of teaching a cued behavior that requires the parrot to expend some kind of effort. Whether it's picking its foot up, saying a word, etc, these are all things where the parrot has to expend energy to make it happen. I believe this kinds of behaviors can solely be taught using positive reinforcement. There has to be a motive. It does not absolutely have to be treats but food works best. However, whether its attention, a toy, or food, the parrot has to have something to gain in return for a trained behavior.

Now taming on the other hand I would consider to be a reduction of fear, aggression, or other undesired behavior that isn't necessarily reinforcing to the parrot. If the parrot is fearful of being touched, it can be tamed to accept touch. The parrot doesn't have to do anything or expend any energy, it merely has to resist it happening. So for taming, I believe that a combination of positive and negative reinforcement are effective. The negative reinforcement is that you only do the undesired action to a certain extent (while slightly pushing your parrot's threshold further and further with successive attempts), stop, and then eventually retreat. The positive reinforcement aspect is similar to training. By using multiple methods simultaneously this way, you can greatly expedite the taming processes.

The difference long term difference between training and taming is that training requires both practice and a continuation of reinforcement. Otherwise extinction will occur and the behavior will be forgotten. Taming on the other hand no longer requires reinforcement once it has been taught. The parrot does not have to make any effort to be grabbed, handled, wings opened, etc. It merely has to not resist. Once these actions have successfully been tamed, just some occasional maintenance is required to preserve the tameness but positive reinforcement is no longer necessary. So that's just my take on training vs. taming.
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Re: Terminology: Taming vs. Training

Postby bmsweb » Sat Apr 10, 2010 7:22 am

This is interesting because I used Target training to Tame Jazz! It was the only way I could get him out of the cage. So in many ways I believe Training is the most efficient way of taming.
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Re: Terminology: Taming vs. Training

Postby Michael » Sat Apr 10, 2010 10:56 pm

Getting the bird to come out of the cage is taming. Teaching the bird to let you grab it and pull it out of the cage is taming. See the difference?
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Re: Terminology: Taming vs. Training

Postby bmsweb » Sun Apr 11, 2010 3:39 am

I understand exactly what you mean Michael, but after what I learnt with Jazz I would recommend everyone train a bird that's not tame. It works so very quickly and the birds seem to enjoy it. I found with Jazz he got so focused on the target training that he almost forgot about me. Its also worth noting that the human learns a lot in the process too.

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Re: Terminology: Taming vs. Training

Postby HyperD » Tue Apr 13, 2010 7:16 am

I don't know if it is possible to define the two differently. There is definitely cross over between them.

Could you not say by taming a bird (allowing it to be handled by a human) is training? If a bird is not allowing you to handle it, do you not progressively get closer clicking and treating? Is that not training it to accept the behaviour of your hand being in contact? The reinforcer once it is "tame" would purely be "playing" or spending time with it's flock?

If you want the parrot to come out of the cage and the parrot runs away to the corner then it is not tame. Again what would you do to let it accept you to let it out? Training? Most people would use a command. By having a command have you not trained it to come out?

Also with training going extinct, surely taming too would? The fact that you handle your parrot every day surely reinforces that tameness? If you were to leave your parrot to roam free in a suitable room with adequate food and water. Would it stay tame indefinitely? I would think not... (I dont suggest anyone to do this though!)
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Re: Terminology: Taming vs. Training

Postby Michael » Tue Apr 13, 2010 10:06 am

I see that people still do not understand the difference between training and taming (or at least the way I see it).

To me, in the simplest form, training is increasing wanted behavior. Taming is decreasing unwanted behavior. I'm not saying that both aren't important or that taming may have a side effect or training or vice verse. However, I think there can be made a clear distinction between the two terms.

Teaching a parrot to step up is training. Teaching a parrot not to bite your finger when you approach to request step up is taming. Teaching a parrot to stay calm and not move so you can grab it is taming. Teaching a parrot to walk into your hand is training. Teaching a parrot to climb into its own cage is training. Teaching a parrot to let you hold it and not bite while you put it back in the cage is taming. Teaching a parrot to let you open its wings is taming. Teaching it to open its own wings on cue is training.

Taming is sometimes required to get to training or training can be a byproduct of taming, however, they are still distinct terms. If a parrot bites you and tries to run away when you open its wings with your hand, then the process by which you desensitize the parrot and let it get comfortable to let you do it is taming. If you want to teach the "wings" trick, you have to be able to touch the parrots wings so some taming must come first. However, if all you wanted was to tame the parrot to let you open its wings and you do it enough times, it may just offer to open them for you to avoid you tugging on them. That would be a training byproduct of the taming process.

So in summary, achieving more behavior is training. Reducing unwanted behavior to allow handling is taming. Is this clearer now?
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Re: Terminology: Taming vs. Training

Postby Mona » Wed Apr 14, 2010 10:38 am

Hi Michael:

This is a discussion that Deborah (horse person extraordinary and owner of gcc) may also want to weigh in on. I think that taming is really not about "decreasing unwanted behavior". It is much more than that. I really think it is "increasing wanted behavior" via a process of using a primary reinforcer which is a "social reinforcer". The subtle difference between taming and training is that training really is often about using secondary reinforcers or conditioned reinforcers via a bridge word while taming is using primary social reinforcers.

Birds are "prey" animals. That makes them different from dogs or cats which are predators. I think a lot of people confuse a lot of natural behaviors that are part and parcel of the makeup of "prey" animals with "wildness". I don't see it as "wildness". I see it as hardwired behaviors that are natural and important for the survival of that animal. For that reason, I see more similarities between horses and birds than I do between dogs/cats and birds.

When I was working with horses, there were two known methods for "taming" a horse. Succinctly, one was known as "breaking" the horse and the other was known as "gentling" the horse. Breaking a horse is what the cowboys used to do. Basically, you used physical restraints and wear the animal down until they gave up. Breaking may be more what you are thinking about when you write about using something other than "positive reinforcement" to influence behavior.

Gentling is quite different. These days, more people "gentle" horses than break them. Gentling begins with the animal at birth. You take advantage of the animal's natural curious nature and need for "social" interaction and you gently interact with the animal at every opportunity. In time, the horse sees you as part of the "herd" and learns that you are the bringer of "good things" and not something to fear. Basically, the animal loses their association with you as a "predator" and sees you as part of their "herd". If you are traning them, they learn that the training is natural, fun, good for them or to put it in OC language..."reinforcing for them". The animal looks forward to the training just as they do every other aspect of their life....even as much as food. Once there, you can do just about any thing as you have learned from your interactions with Kili. Breaking is relatively limited in what you can achieve or teach.....Working with an animal that has been gentled, the limits are your imagination.

If you want to see the end result of this....and see real poetry in motion....watch a performance by the Lippizaner stallions some time. These animals are never, ever broken. They take a generation to achieve what they achieve and it is breathtaking to see.

So...the "taming" via a gentling process is about using positive reinforcement. The animal works with you because they want to be with you. The behavior is repeated because the animal is reinforced for the behavior. The key is to "gentle" the animal....not break the animal. How do you do that? Well, it's a lot easier if you start at birth with the animal....but there are other ways too.

I know this is true with birds because I have five that would really like to live their lives on top of me, interacting with me....just into every thing I am into due to their curious, naturally social nature. It is clearly a primary reinforcer for them. Baby animals naturally play and naturally tend to their social group. They are born with the instinct to do that. That instinct is as strong as their instinct for food. There is even a point in a baby bird's development where they will NOT eat because the drive to fledge is stronger.

Gotta go...

Thanks

Mona
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Re: Terminology: Taming vs. Training

Postby Mona » Wed Apr 14, 2010 10:53 am

....and having said all of that, yes I agree with you that a "tame" animal is not a "wild" animal and should never be mistaken for one. Once they learn to live in our environments, you minimize that quick, instinctive "prey" response that is so important for survival in dangerous environments - which are wild environments.

One goal of "taming" to our environments is to modify quick, instinctive aversive tendencies. The animal learns to disassociate things that are instinctively "aversive" as something to avoid. The birds that live in our homes don't live on "high alert". They couldn't adapt to our homes if they did. We have changed that via the process of "taming" them.

"We are forever responsible for the animals that we have tamed". That was the motto of the Gabriel Society...and I'm not quoting it perfectly. First said by St. Francis of Assissi I think.....

Okay...now, really gotta go..

Mona
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Phinneous Fowl (aka Phinney) TAG
Babylon Sengal
Doug (spousal unit)
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