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Getting over fear of hands

Discuss the methods and techniques of clicker training, target training and bonding. These are usually the first steps in training a young parrot.

Getting over fear of hands

Postby dragonsong » Sun Nov 30, 2014 1:36 am

I have had my bronze wing pionus since October 11th and since then I have not ever been able to get him to step up from inside or on top of his cage. I can tell he has really started to bond with me and WANTS to be around, he freaks out when I get home from work and if I walk away while he is on his cage top he flies into the hallway and looks for me. When this happens I can get him to step up REALLY nicely and the same thing happens when he flies off just to wander around my room...and I can then take him for walks around the house and hang out for a bit; but if he is on or in his cage he just shuffles away a bit scared and I don't want to push him so he completely freaks out.

Any training methods or tips I can use to overcome this? I have been thinking about starting targeting.
dragonsong
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Gender: This parrot forum member is female
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Re: Getting over fear of hands

Postby Wolf » Sun Nov 30, 2014 7:27 am

Congratulations on your new friend. It would be really helpful for you to provide us with more information, but I know how difficult it can be to figure out what information that we might need in order to help you the most. Because of this, I hope that you don't mind me asking some question.
You said that you have had this bird since the eleventh of October and you also said that he flies. Bearing this in mind, Can you tell us anything about his past and perhaps his age? Both of these may be reflected in his behaviors. While I love the phrase freaked out, and use it sometimes, myself, it is much too broad and nonspecific to tell us much. I assume that you refer to him screaming for you to return, if so this is normal behavior and he is not freaking. How much time do you spend with your bird? Where is his cage located in your home? How much time does he spend out of his cage?
I do have an idea as to what is happening here and although my answers will help you they are primarily geared towards helping your bird, which will make your life easier as well. Based on what I read, I am thinking that his cage is located in a spare room or some other place where the bird is separated from the main area of activity in the house. While this is good for his sleeping arrangements it is not good for the rest of the day as he wants and needs to be where he can watch what is going on and therefore feel like he is a part of the flock. Parrots are not suited to being separated from everyone as they are highly social and from the time they are hatched til they die they are never alone in their normal habitat. In their natural environment being alone is pretty much a death sentence and they are aware of this. In our world placing your bird where he is alone is the harshest punishment that you can inflict on them and it terrifies them, the screaming is his only means to try to tell you these things and is an attempt on his part to get you to come back and at least be with him so that he knows that he is safe. While it is OK to have a sleep cage in another room for night time use so that he can get quality sleep, it is not the place for him during the day, he needs to have at least a perch or a play area somewhere where he can be a part of your daily activities, other than the kitchen as it is a bad and dangerous place for a bird and he should never go into the kitchen.
If you do not have a tall perch or play gym for him, you could roll his cage out into the main area and then get a smaller cage such as a travel cage to put in the other room for a sleep cage, or you can move his larger cage back and forth between rooms. I think that if you will do this that the screaming will mostly go away and then if you go to his cage often while it is in the main area and talk to him for a few minutes and ask him to step up after showing him a piece of fruit that he likes that you can get him to begin to step up for you from the cage. When he does make certain that you walk around and place him back on top of the cage or in another place or spend time with him as you do not want him to feel that you only want him to step up to put him in the cage.
Wolf
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Re: Getting over fear of hands

Postby dragonsong » Sun Nov 30, 2014 1:53 pm

He is from a breeder and was born June 13 :) And was raised really well from what I was shown as he grew up. Allowed to fledge, got lots of fresh food etc.

By freak out I mean he screeches (happily) and it's the only time he gets so loud so I assume he is really really excited for me to be back. When I go to other parts of the house to make food or clean he is quiet, it's just the span in between me coming home from work that really gets him excited. Keep in mind he is a very quiet species of parrot in the first place..the ONLY times he makes any significant noise (which is so quiet its actually cute and bearable) is when I get home or run the vaccuum. He is in my room and I spend a LOT of my time home there and he is out of the cage for as long as I am in the house (if he chooses to come out, sometimes the door is open but he just stays inside and chews up his toys) So he gets roughly 3-4hrs MINIMUM per day, often is a lot more depending on work shifts and such. There are also 3 parakeets in a flight cage near him as well.

He is partially clipped, he can still fly really well and is molting so they should all be back soon! I have been really thinking of adding a tree to the downstairs so he has a place to be around all of us. The only issue is his apparent fear of hands when hes in or on his cage.
dragonsong
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Gender: This parrot forum member is female
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Re: Getting over fear of hands

Postby Wolf » Sun Nov 30, 2014 5:48 pm

Do you give him treats from your fingers? Part of this could be that he is territorial or it could be an actual aversion to hands. I think that I would begin target training but I would not go with the food management, this is one area where it is easy to do wrong and if not done correctly will do more harm than good. Start your training session about an hour after he has had his breakfast and then again about an hour before his dinner time. Both of these times should work fine as for him being motivated enough to work on his training without the need to use food management as Michael calls it. Some people use that method and some don't think it is a good way to go. I just don't use it as I have never needed to.
Wolf
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Gender: This parrot forum member is male
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Re: Getting over fear of hands

Postby dragonsong » Sun Nov 30, 2014 7:26 pm

Wolf wrote:Do you give him treats from your fingers? Part of this could be that he is territorial or it could be an actual aversion to hands. I think that I would begin target training but I would not go with the food management, this is one area where it is easy to do wrong and if not done correctly will do more harm than good. Start your training session about an hour after he has had his breakfast and then again about an hour before his dinner time. Both of these times should work fine as for him being motivated enough to work on his training without the need to use food management as Michael calls it. Some people use that method and some don't think it is a good way to go. I just don't use it as I have never needed to.


Yep he takes weaning pellets and fruit bits from my hands..I don't want to start doing food management till he is at least a year old and I find a better gram scale, mine is very inaccurate :?

Today when I was cleaning the cages he flew into the hallway after me again and I was able to pick him right up, when you say step up he actually gets his foot ready before you even approach so he is trained for it...after that he rode around on my arm and shoulder for a while before flying back to his cage. It's so weird that he just runs when I try to do the step up on or in his cage. I'll attempt his first targeting lesson tomorrow before dinner and see how that goes :)
dragonsong
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Gender: This parrot forum member is female
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Re: Getting over fear of hands

Postby Wolf » Sun Nov 30, 2014 10:06 pm

With this last post that you made, I think I know what is going on in his head, and therefore how to remedy it. If I am right the reason for his refusal to step up while in his cage is territorial and the reason behind his refusal and avoidance while on top of his cage is that he thinks that you are going to put him in the cage. I know that this sounds contradictory, but it really is not. more on that, in a moment, for now how to deal with this.
As far as for when he is in his cage, just open the door, step away and give him the space and a minute or two so that he can come out on his own. As for when he is on top of his cage, make sure that you have a couple of other places to go other than his cage and then ask him to step up, don't chase him when he moves away, but just let him see that you have a treat. Don't let him know about the treat until he has moved away to avoid stepping up, wait a minute and then ask for him to step up again, if he does not and moves away again, wait a minute then show him the treat while you ask for him to step up, repeat if you must and when he steps up take him to one of the other perches, give him the treat. Stay where he can see you and do something for a couple of minutes and go to him and ask for him to step up. When he does take him back to the cage and place him on top of it and go do something. You need to vary this and sometimes take him to both perches. sometimes just walk about with him and return him to the top of the cage or to one of the perches and sometimes put him in his cage always giving him a treat when you ask him to step down. This should solve the step up from the top of the cage.
Don't concern your self about when he is in his cage, allow him to say no to step up from inside. If he is willing to come out of the cage, which will be almost always let him come out on his own and he will. You will be able to ask for and get a step up fro the top.
Now back to what is going on and why I said to allow him to leave the cage on his own. First, birds are not wired to follow orders and he needs to feel in control of his life a little, he also needs to feel that you respect him and listen to him and what he wants and this is the best place and time to allow for this to happen. He also knows that the cage is his house and he needs to have a safe place where he knows that he can relax and no one including you will try to force themselves on him and his home is the ideal place for it. It is in his mind his one safe place and it should be that place so respect it as such. It will pay off with a better relationship and more trust on his part and a stronger bond. You will find that if you do this that there will rarely be a time that he doesn't come out which is also his way of saying that he is ready to be with you. This is why he tries to avoid you stepping him up from inside of the cage.
The part that at first seems to be contradictory is his refusal and avoidance of the step up from the top of the cage. Consider that by coming out of his safe place, the cage, he is saying that he is ready to spend time with you and that you are telling him that you don't want to be with him when you step him up just to put him in his cage and go away. That is not what he wants and that is the basis of his refusal and avoidance while on top of the cage. It is also why he should always get a treat when you put him in his cage. Your bird wants more than anything else to spend his time with you, it is why he comes out of his cage on his own and the reason that he doesn't want to go back in it, although he knows that it is his safe place. When you step him up take him with you and do something with him and talk to him when you do this. Go look outside when it is too cold and talk to him, take him to watch a few minutes of tv with you and talk to him and give him a couple of head scratches then take him to his cage for dinner or whatever. it will pay off for both of you.
Try this for a week and let me know how it is going.
Wolf
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Gender: This parrot forum member is male
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Re: Getting over fear of hands

Postby dragonsong » Tue Dec 02, 2014 4:26 am

Wolf wrote:With this last post that you made, I think I know what is going on in his head, and therefore how to remedy it. If I am right the reason for his refusal to step up while in his cage is territorial and the reason behind his refusal and avoidance while on top of his cage is that he thinks that you are going to put him in the cage. I know that this sounds contradictory, but it really is not. more on that, in a moment, for now how to deal with this.
As far as for when he is in his cage, just open the door, step away and give him the space and a minute or two so that he can come out on his own. As for when he is on top of his cage, make sure that you have a couple of other places to go other than his cage and then ask him to step up, don't chase him when he moves away, but just let him see that you have a treat. Don't let him know about the treat until he has moved away to avoid stepping up, wait a minute and then ask for him to step up again, if he does not and moves away again, wait a minute then show him the treat while you ask for him to step up, repeat if you must and when he steps up take him to one of the other perches, give him the treat. Stay where he can see you and do something for a couple of minutes and go to him and ask for him to step up. When he does take him back to the cage and place him on top of it and go do something. You need to vary this and sometimes take him to both perches. sometimes just walk about with him and return him to the top of the cage or to one of the perches and sometimes put him in his cage always giving him a treat when you ask him to step down. This should solve the step up from the top of the cage.
Don't concern your self about when he is in his cage, allow him to say no to step up from inside. If he is willing to come out of the cage, which will be almost always let him come out on his own and he will. You will be able to ask for and get a step up fro the top.
Now back to what is going on and why I said to allow him to leave the cage on his own. First, birds are not wired to follow orders and he needs to feel in control of his life a little, he also needs to feel that you respect him and listen to him and what he wants and this is the best place and time to allow for this to happen. He also knows that the cage is his house and he needs to have a safe place where he knows that he can relax and no one including you will try to force themselves on him and his home is the ideal place for it. It is in his mind his one safe place and it should be that place so respect it as such. It will pay off with a better relationship and more trust on his part and a stronger bond. You will find that if you do this that there will rarely be a time that he doesn't come out which is also his way of saying that he is ready to be with you. This is why he tries to avoid you stepping him up from inside of the cage.
The part that at first seems to be contradictory is his refusal and avoidance of the step up from the top of the cage. Consider that by coming out of his safe place, the cage, he is saying that he is ready to spend time with you and that you are telling him that you don't want to be with him when you step him up just to put him in his cage and go away. That is not what he wants and that is the basis of his refusal and avoidance while on top of the cage. It is also why he should always get a treat when you put him in his cage. Your bird wants more than anything else to spend his time with you, it is why he comes out of his cage on his own and the reason that he doesn't want to go back in it, although he knows that it is his safe place. When you step him up take him with you and do something with him and talk to him when you do this. Go look outside when it is too cold and talk to him, take him to watch a few minutes of tv with you and talk to him and give him a couple of head scratches then take him to his cage for dinner or whatever. it will pay off for both of you.
Try this for a week and let me know how it is going.


I will try this, however is he really still afraid I'm going to put him back into the cage when I NEVER put him back myself? He always flies back in when it seems like he's had enough adventure for now.
dragonsong
Parakeet
 
Gender: This parrot forum member is female
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Re: Getting over fear of hands

Postby Wolf » Tue Dec 02, 2014 11:56 am

No, he should not be afraid that you will put him back in the cage if you don't do this. Does he step up for you elsewhere?
It could be a fear of your hands but it seems to me from your previous post that this is related to his cage in some way. It could also be that he wants to make the choice of when to leave the cage for himself.
What I suggested might not be the reason for his behavior but I don't think that it will hurt any. As the whole thing is for the purpose of building his trust in you. If you don't put him in the cage now, I think that I would still try this just don't close the cage door, that way he can come right back out. It then becomes an exercise where he gets a treat for stepping up for you from the cage and letting you place him anywhere. I still think that this will prove helpful and if at any point you think that it is not helping quit doing it.
Wolf
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Re: Getting over fear of hands

Postby Pajarita » Wed Dec 03, 2014 3:03 pm

Birds always step up when they are on the floor - even when they don't step up under any other conditions. It seems to me that he is lonely and wants your company but that he doesn't quite trust you 100% yet. I would start by bribing him to step up on my arm with a treat and spending time with him on my shoulder walking around, doing chores, whatever but always talking to him (praise, praise, praise in a soft baby voice). Start by doing it for 5 minutes and then bring him back to the top of his cage but don't give him a treat when you put him down, only when he steps up to your arm or hand. Do this for 5 days in a row and then increase the time to 10 minutes and see what happens and, if it goes well for an entire week, increase again. He needs more one on one time and once he learns to enjoy it and bonds deeper with you, he will ask you to step up on you of his own initiative :D But, in my personal experience (not large, I've only had two pies), pionuses are not cuddly birds and although they enjoy and need people's company, they are not the clingy type... they are more like amazons, they want you to pay attention to them but they like to keep a certain amount of independence, too.
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Re: Getting over fear of hands

Postby dragonsong » Thu Dec 11, 2014 11:40 am

Popping in with an update.....about three days after I posted this he decided STEPPING UP is cool and so are cheek scritchies! CRAZY progress and I really didn't change much...I guess he just needed time? At any rate now that he lets me touch him I think I'll start preparing for harness training and I have actually started some target training sessions, he's just really hard to 'treat' because he changes it up all the time...he was going nuts for sunflower seeds, then it was weaning pellets, and now it's pasta.
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