building trust, but also giving expectations to your parrot

[Roonil Wazlib]

Ok, so I have adopted a year old eclectus, and ive had him for two days now. Im not sure how to approach building trust with him, and also maintaining that im 'boss'. Ive had him out of the cage a couple of times, never been forced, hes always had the option to step up if he wanted to, but he immediately travels up my arm to get to my shoulder. This is not ok for me yet, so far he hasnt done any untrustworthy things, and he hasnt bitten hard at all, but I want us to establish a friendship before we move to this level. The only way ive been able to get him off my shoulder is bribery, which is fine - with toys and treats, but if he turns his nose up at them, and its time for him to go back in his cage, I have to use force to get him to step up and I dont want to do this, im scard it will hurt the trust im trying to build. He usually goes back into the cage willingly and without a fight, so thats a relief, but hes probably not fully comfortable with his sourounds yet, so thats another thing I might need help on in the future as I have cats also, and need to divide attention untill things get settled and we begin the scariness of both cat and bird in the same room (not for.a while yet though) so no prospect of free range for a long time.
anyway, im rambeling, thankyou, lovley people

[Pajarita]

Well, for one thing, you are parting from the wrong premise. Parrots have no bosses. The concept of a hierarchical society does not exist for them. Flocks have no leaders, no alphas, no bosses, etc so, basically, social rank doesn't exist in them so expecting a parrot to understand the concept of dominant/subordinate individual position is futile.

I am not clear on why his climbing up your shoulder is not OK with you, can you explain, please?

As to having to use a bribe to get what you want... well, you better get used to it because that's life with a parrot! Meaning, as far as they are concerned, if you want something, you better wait for the right moment, ask very nicely, and be ready to reward with something (it can be just praise and/or scritches) because, if you don't, I suggest you don't hold your breath waiting for the parrot to do it

[Wolf]

Answering this post places me on dangerous ground, as we seem to have a much different perspective on these birds. I don't know how much of what you have stated in this post is an accurate depiction of how you think about your bird and its relationship with you or how much is really a matter of semantics. I really think that you actually want what is best for your bird, I really do not wish to offend you with my answer to this post, but I also think that you would prefer that I speak honestly to you. So please try to look at what I say in the manner that it is intended.
I think that the first point that I would like to address is that of your cat. I also have cats in my house and there are times when one of my birds feels that it must absolutely get right up in the cats face, sometimes with the intention of being friendly and at other times to make the cat leave. I do my very best to prevent this interaction from happening. There are several reasons for this with the first being that cats are predators, while parrots are prey, don't read this wrong because I really like my cats to be a little fat and happy with a full belly, but I just don't want his full belly to be the result of my parrot being in it. Although none of my cats show any inclination towards eating my birds, it is on the list of natural food for a cat. My cat are much more interested in my birds as a potential playmate and unfortunately even sitting nest to the bird and cat, the cat can strike with its claws faster than I can move to intercept it and as cats claws and saliva are potentially fatal for a bird, I just can't allow them to interact.
The remainder of this post really is one issue, at least in my mind. You use the idea of the bird knowing that you are the boss and forcing it to do as you want, primarily in the context of putting the bird in its cage. Believe me I do understand this situation as there are times that I really need my birds to go into their cages even though they really want to remain out. sometimes it gets a little dicey as these time most often occur at those times when I must leave the house for a while and I can't leave them out unattended, mostly because I have cats. I usually try to schedule these times so that I can start returning them to their cages at a time that they normally prefer to spend napping and I would put them in their cages anyway as this keeps them on a routine that they know and expect. Because of this it helps to provide a much desired sense of security for them. Birds, at least parrots, do not really grasp the concept of an alpha or boss as their flocks ( their natural social structure) is based on a natural cooperation between the birds for its continued survival, not on some bird in charge that make the decisions for all of them as in the familiar pack structure of dogs or humans. Forcing a parrot to do things that it does not want to do will result in a bird that will scream or bite to get what it desires, it is also one of the leading causes of feather plucking. The bird needs to feel that it is in charge of its own life, even if it is not, and this is one of the reasons that routines work so well to their benefit as it provides a certain predictability to upcoming event, they know what to expect and when and are secure in this knowledge. It is rarely necessary to force a bird into any thing at all. Respect the bird when it says no, wait a couple of minutes, grab a couple of treats and ask again. Often this alone will result in the desired response from the bird. If it does not then again wait a minute and ask again, this time with a treat. Forcing yourself on your bird will undermine everything that you are working for and can and usually does result in poor behavior if it is done too often.
This does not mean that you can't establish boundries, because you should. If you think about it then I am sure that you would agree that routines are a form of boundry for the bird. You don't want your bird to be on your shoulder, but this is one of the highest places on your body and your head and shoulder are some of their most desired perches on you. These birds spend most of their time high in the treetops, so these are the most natural place for them to be on your body. What can you do? You can trust the bird and let it perch on your shoulder unless it does something to hurt you while there or you can try to block the bird from getting on your shoulder and you can move the bird when it goes to your shoulder. You can teach your bird that you don't want it on your shoulder using normal training techniques.
I hope that this helps you.

[Roonil Wazlib]

oh my goodness, guys, i didn't mean boss as in i'm boss and he has to follow what i say, its why i wrote boss like 'boss' because i know they aren't like dogs and have masters. it was stupid of me to praze it that way, it was meant to be more of a i'm uncomfortable with him being here so soon, and its something we can work on together in the future building that trust - i don't want him to be boss of me, and i don't want to be boss of him. i want our friendship to be equal.

climbing straight up to my shoulder isn't exactly a problem - i'm looking forward to it immensely in the future when we know each other a little better. its just we don't know each other yet, and i want to have my boundaries, and i want us both to feel comfortable being at the level to do that. having him eye level is not a problem, but even if my hand is higher then my shoulder, he'd still rather be on my shoulder.

I'll continue bribing him then should only be a couple of weeks before i feel comfortable enough to let him have his spot on the shoulder. And I'll bribe him to get him back in the cage as well. I think so far i've been pretty good with letting him have his own decisions. its awesome to watch that moment when he does decide that he will step up onto your hand.

Anyway, about the cats. I fully respect that we have different views on this, and i know i'm only a newby when it comes to parrot husbandry. I personally think that its more dangerous to not eventually build up to this under supervision (never will i ever let Julian out while the cats are out without supervision) but because cats are sneaky and accidents happen, and i would never forgive myself if Julian were to get out of his cage, while the cats were in and i was out, and something terrible happened because of their hunting instincts. I'd rather build up over time, teaching the cats that Julian is not to be eaten - I also understand that the cats instincts won't go away just because i think its safe. ill always be on guard.

I won't be letting them interact with each other, no touching is to be involved, because cats are quick and i know that their saliva is dangerous. At the moment i feel pretty sure that open supervision is something that will happen in our household, but i wont be doing it until i'm 100000% sure. it could be in a year, could be in five years, or it could be never if i don't ever feel comfortable to it, but anyway, that's my views.

Thanks guys, as always.
I'd be lost without you two

[Wolf]

I understand. I thought that might be the way that you meant it, but this early in our relationship I did not think it wise to be overconfident and take it for granted. Regardless of how much I end up doing it, I really don't like eating crow, so to speak, and falling all over myself apologizing for my error in judgement.
I have 7 cats, in my house as well as 3 dogs, which are two predator species and I can put most of them outside in their respective penned in yards. I have big hawks and a few eagles that hunt over my property so I have to protect the cats from these birds. Anyway I do have a couple of cats that do not go outside, so if I am not available to watch over everyone then the birds remain caged until I can be there for their protection, My cats are well aware that these are not eating birds, same as with the dogs, but they are predators and I will never take that for granted as that would be a disaster waiting to happen. Unfortunately my house is not set up so that I can effectively keep them separated all of the time which results in all of them sharing a single room when the birds are out with me, I do not recommend this for the reasons that I have already stated, but it is the way that it is.

[Roonil Wazlib]

Ah, well i'm pretty lucky at the moment. Our house is in two sections and i just put the cats down the back while Julian is out. Unfortunately its raining today, and they got crabby the couple of times they were down there, lol. Day before yesterday was easy because it was sunny out, and they were content to be outside.

But as far as Julian sitting on my shoulder - he did a few times, and that was ok, I'm just bribing to stay on my hand a bit longer, which i think he is feeling more comfortable being on my hands as well now.

[Wolf]

Great ! Some people suggest not allowing a bird to be on your shoulder until you have established a certain level of trust, but for the most part I pay it no attention unless they start nipping me or biting me. It is their natural instinct to want to perch on my shoulder and this is why I let them unless they show me that I should not let them. Bribery works wonders.
Sounds like you are doing fine.

[Roonil Wazlib]

Hehe, im having a mini panic attack because I have to go to work tomorrow, and it will be his first day alone. Ill be stressing all day. The sad thing is, I dont believe hes had much experience with foraging toys. I made him a simple one yesterday, as he didnt come with any at all, and had to simplify it even further today for him to begin trying to get the treats, but hes learning quickly. Im just worried he will be board tomorow without me to repack the treats in the toy, I also gave him one of those cat ball toys (replacement for the small bell) and he acted as though he hadnt seen one before hes got a beautiful cage, with plently of wood purches, and loves human contact, and eats well, I just dont thing his previous family worried too much about his mental simulation. That will change

[Wolf]

You can make simple foraging toys simply by wrapping a treat in paper tying it with a little string and after showing him how to tear them open for the treat put them all about his cage. I would pretty much count on having to teach him about any toy that you give him.

[Pajarita]

I have 6 strictly indoor cats and, right now, 8 dogs because I've been caring for a friend's dog for the last month. The cats are all put in a room in the morning and stay there during the day when the birds are out and let out in the evening when the birds are back in their cages. There is no interaction, closely monitoring or not, between my birds and my cats. Most of them are old (21, 17, two are 15) and 2 are under a year old and, although they are well fed and 'good' cats, I would not risk their reacting to a bird flying over their heads with a reflex swap of their paw. No person is quick enough to prevent this.

Leave the radio on and lots of chewing material. Some people leave the TV on for them but I don't like to expose mine to the pulsating light of the TV as it causes our brains to produce alpha waves (I don't know if it does the same to parrots but just in case...)