Retaming an old bird

[JessiMuse]

So we have a white capped pionus that my parents have had for years now. His name is Dudley, and though I'm not sure of his age exact age, my dad thinks he's around 30 years old. Anyone who read my introduction knows that I'm experiencing some difficulties in bonding with him, as well as training him, so this post is a more detailed explanation of the whole situation.

My parents got Dudley at a pet store that basically told them a load of lies. First thing they said was that he was a white faced amazon parrot, which is in a completely different genus altogether. They also told them that after a while, his species just "becomes mean" after a certain age (which I really don't think any bird truly "becomes mean" after a certain age).

Dudley used to be a very gentle bird who loved being pet. My parents used to let him out all the time, and he would even step up onto one's hand. He was never fond of visitors, though he tolerated them (accept this one man who he'd always try to attack while my parents were playing poker, but that's different). He even had a cockatiel best friend that he'd cuddle with. He never did bite people (again, accept for the guy they played poker with), and he just loved being a part of the action. Well it seems his personality has changed over time. He became less tolerant of petting . He would let people pet him for a while, and bite them out of nowhere, He won't step up onto anyone's hand anymore, and he hates anyone being too close to his cage (though I would suspect being a bird's natural preference to be on higher grounds, because if I sit on the ground, he's perfectly fine).

I mentioned in my introduction thread that he has a fear of being outside of the cage. It seems I've misspoken so allow me to explain what I meant... Getting out of he cage, is not a problem. If the door's left open for him to come out, he'll come out. Then he'll fly down (since he's cage bound by my parents, he doesn't have much chance to fly and excercise his wings), and that's where he's afraid of everything. He'll just stay there, not wanting to explore, not wanting any treats, not wanting to look around very much. He'll go to the nearest person, but that's about it. He'll let people pet them at this moment, but then after a while, he'll bite them. first time he bit me, I reacted poorly. I screamed raised my hand. However, he doesn't just bite. He bites and never lets go, and so he was dangling from my finger for a couple seconds. Poor Dudley was all stressed out after that, making his nervous wheezing (though it sounded more like hyperventilating) every time a hand got near.

I want to somehow retrain him, so this doesn't happen again. Now there's probably some stuff I'm doing wrong as well, the reaction to the bite obviously being one of them. I've come to the conclusion that Dudley may like petting, though he has his limits with it, and the biting would be him telling me to stop.why he holds on though, I'm not quite sure... However, are there any signs I should look for when he's about to bite?

The only time he lets any hands near him is when he's away from his cage. If he's in or on his cage, he'll try to bite any hands he sees. This is troubling, considering the fact that he won't accept any kind of treat when he's away from his cage, making it nearly impossible to teach him to step up, to put him back in his cage.

I'm really not sure what to do at this point. I've tried tutorials, guides and such, but I'm apparently doing something wrong. Does anyone have any kind of suggestions?

[Wolf]

I guess I still have some questions so I will just ask.
When he is in his cage will he accept a treat through the bars of the cage?
When you stand next to the cage and if he is on the highest perch how close is he to being head high to you?
What is the size of the cage?
What is the placement of the cage in relation to windows and people traffic?
Does he have any type of toys in his cage?
What time does he get up in the morning and when does he go to sleep at night?
Is he covered at night?
What food does he get to eat and when does he get this food?
You mentioned that he will allow some petting, so where do you pet him ( on his body)?
I believe that his not letting go when he bit you is a fear thing, but I don't know that for certain. You did scare him when you yelled but that may yet work in your favor. I am not a believer in suck it up and don't respond. I don't believe that another bird would act that way and neither do I. I am not into a lot of drama but I don't feel that letting him know that he hurt you is bad either as long as you don't carry on about it. If you know what I mean. Parrots are not innately hostile and biting is either a learned response to the human not listening to the bird or it is a last ditch attempt to stop something from being done to them. There are, of course, some exceptions to this such as protecting its mate or special human, protecting its nesting site which would be its cage and hormones at breeding time.
It is not my intent to pry into your affairs but I am trying to get a reasonable picture in my mind as to the variable that may be affecting his behavior.

[JessiMuse]

Sorry for not replying. I've been pretty busy, lately.

I'll try and answer them to the best of my ability.

-Yes, he will accept a treat through the bars.
-when he is on his highest perch, he is parallel to my chest
-The cage is in the middle of the house, where he has a clear view of the front and back door as well as windows, the kitchen, living room, dining room, computer, and while he can't see the door to the garage, we pass his cage every time we leave or come back from somewhere. This is basically so he can see just about everything that is going on. We're not all that active, so we pass by the cage just a few times a day. We also don't usually get very many people, but he recognizes friends, and doesn't react to them as he would strangers.
-There are no toys. He never had an interest in them.
-He gets up around the time my parents get up (5-6 am), and goes to bed around the time the kitchen doesn't get used as often (9 pm).
-He is not covered at night
-He receives food daily, which is Hartz large bird diet food, which we also add nuts (specifically uncooked peanuts) and dehydrated fruits (his favorite are banana chips). My mom also lets him have vegetables and fruits from whatever she cooks, and I share my snack of lightly salted peanuts with him (I only give him a few, because I don't want him to have too much salt).
-The one time I pet him, is the back of his neck. My parents always pet him in the same area, as well, before he started biting.

Here is a picture of his cage. Sorry if it's small. I'll try and get a bigger one if you need it.

The cage next to him has actually been empty for a long time. My mom plans on putting a couple of finches in it, soon.

Dudley.jpg (27.59 KiB) Viewed 6316 times

[Wolf]

Hey, I am well aware of how life intrudes on our little realities, it happens to me all of the time. So I wouldn't worry about it too much.
I would like to give you this link on body language http://www.birdsnways.com/wisdom/ww15eii.htm
It may use any of several species of parrots, but this is rarely an issue as most parrots have the same or similar body language.
It sounds as if your Dudley has a few territorial issues about his cage and this does not surprise me at all, it is actually quite common and usually easier to work around rather than to try to change as it is based on the instinct to protect its nesting area and its offspring.
Parrots are usually pretty docile birds preferring to run away from confrontation rather than attacking and so biting is in most cases a last resort measure with them. There are, however, a few circumstances where biting becomes more prevalent such as when protecting its territory, the bird is hormonal as in breeding season and when it is taught to bite because no one listens to it when it asks to be treated differently.
I have certain reservations about suggesting any changes as this species lives 25+ years according to The World Parrot Trust. While this is an average it does mean that this bird is quite old. I do have changes to suggest that should all benefit the bird. I just thought it prudent to mention that he is old and has already outlived many of the other birds of his species. You have a very special bird in my opinion and wanted you to know this.
I worry some about his diet and especially with the raw peanuts and the dehydrated fruits. The peanuts are subject to a fungus that can be toxic to birds and a lot of dehydrated fruits are preserved with a chemical that is bad for birds. I can't think of what the preservative is at the moment some sulfate, I think, but I will have to look it up and come back with the answer. I also am concerned that the current diet is too high in protein and this could easily be part of Dudley's biting issue, as too much protein can increase aggression in parrots.
I went to the Hartz web site to try and find the ingredients in this bird food. I could not find a listing of the ingredients, but what I did find was that every single review on this product on the companies site was bad ranging from insects in the food and the poor quality of the food and indications that this loos of quality has been going on for more than a few years. So I can't say that I would recommend this food for your Dudley. I would recommend that you locate about five or six different whole grains that you could cook and add to some wild rice and chopped cooked mixed vegetables about a 50% mix of the whole grains and rice to 50% chopped cooked vegetables and then add 20% more of cooked white beans and lentils and feed this to Dudley in the mornings with enough to last through the day along with a fresh raw vegetable, fruit and leafy green. and then find a new seed mix to feed him in the evenings for dinner. Since this is a great diet to wean a bird to when it is first learning to eat adult foods, I think that you would find that it should sit very well with his digestive system.
I think that I would dry roast some of his raw peanuts and if he likes them use them for treats to help you to become more of his friend. This step, which is mostly all about winning his trust is best done with lots of talking and singing with a few treats thrown in. Most bird like it when you give them praise and when you sing to them. They are very forgiving of people who can't sing really well. I know because my birds love it and I can scare the dead when I sing.
A lot of times the reason that a bird doesn't play with toys is because they don't know what they are or how to use them. Like us they are not born knowing how to play with toys, but you can easily make some simple foraging toys that I bet Dudley would like once you teach him how to use them.
I bet that your local food store would give you a handful of corn husks to make a foraging toy for Dudley. You could wrap a peanut in a corn husk and tie it up in his cage with a piece of sisal twine for him to tear open for the peanut. If you make several of them while sitting and talking to him, you could be sure that he sees you put the peanut in the husk and you could just give him one to try out while you are making them. This also give you the opportunity to show him how to tear one open to get the peanut.
A lot of birds don't like to be touched very much, my Grey is like that. She does like to have her head and neck scratched but not for long and not even every day, only when she asks for it. Although, at least here this species, White capped pionus. is pretty rare they are reported to actually be a quite docile, but playful bird. Of course you must take into account that they are all individuals and some will be very playful while others don't like it as much.
If Dudley will calmly take a treat from your hand through the bars of his cage and if he comes to the side of the cage that you are on to see you when you approach then I think that I would try to target train him in the cage for the beginning of his training. You can read about how to do this here, viewtopic.php?f=11&t=227
As I said earlier, I hesitate to suggest too many changes too soon as this is a very special bird, partly due to his age. Start with these and let me know how it goes.

[JessiMuse]

I was not aware of the bad reviews of Hartz's food. I never seemed to notice bugs in his food. I have noticed that certain things in the food, he doesn't like. He'll just drop it out of his bowl.

The only real dehydrated fruit we use are banana chips. This is the last time I'll ever think of giving those to him though. And I'll make sure we get him dry roasted peanuts. I heard that one has to slowly wean off of one food when switching to a different kind of diet. You say this will sit well with his digestive system, meaning I don't have to worry about gradually changing it as much, correct? I mean, I'm sure I probably would, just so he'd get used to the food, but I'm just trying to clarify that I am reading it the same way you are saying it.
Also, are there any seed mixes that you suggest, for dinner?

Feeding him dry roast peanuts have felt more right to me than feeding him raw peanuts. I share lightly salted ones with him, because I feel that "sharing" a snack with him would make him feel that I'm including him in whatever I'm doing (because even now, he seems to enjoy being a part of something). I always worry about the salt though, even if it doesn't seem to bother him. I guess I'll get used to eating non salted peanuts, if eating with him is actually doing anything to closer our relationship (he's always interested in whatever I'm eating, and just watches me as I eat).

He doesn't exactly accept treats "calmly". He'll quickly snatch them away, and move away to eat them. Is this normal? Sometimes, I'll have to move my hand away, to make sure he is amino tfor the treat, and not my fingers, because sometimes, he'll literally try and get my fingers when I have a treat in my hand. I assume this is the territorial instinct you talked about. He also tends to scream more than what's described of the white capped pionus species. However, like everyone says, every parrot is individual. This also seems to be a territorial thing, since he does it when he sees something out the front window (it's not seen in the picture, but there's a sign above his cage that says: "watch parrot on duty").

Thank you for the advice. I know Dudley is old for his species, so I'll make the changes gradual. I've actually already started reading to him almost every night. He seems forgiving of my stuttering and difficulty to pronounce certain words. I read a chapter of Sherlock Holmes per night (strange choice, I know), and try to keep from interfering with his wake/sleep schedule. I read it to him when he had a night terror. Not sure what frightened him, but he fell off his perch, and was panting when I turned on the light. I sat for some minutes, and he didn't seem to calm down whatsoever, so I started reading. By the very of the chapter, he made himself comfy, and was ready to go back to sleep. I'm glad I was able to help him out there. (at least, I think I helped him. Not quite sure if what I did made any difference).

[Wolf]

I am sure that your reading to him did in fact help calm him, in much the same manner that our voice helps to calm and reassure a frightened bird that is new to us and their new home when they first come to live with us. But I think that since he knows you already that it was even more reassuring to him than my illustration would suggest. I wonder though if he might have had a small seizure, considering his age and that being the reason for him falling from his perch.
I would think that his snatching the treat from you may be related to territorial behavior in this situation although I am not so sure about the screaming and would require more information on it to even guess as to the reason for it.
Since he likes banana chips, I don't think that I would deprive him of them, however I would try to find a more organic variety of them to give to him. They are usually pretty easy to tell the difference as the ones without the preservative are not as pretty to look at. While I am on the topic of treats, I would also try using some fruits as treats for him as in his normal ( wild) diet fruits would account for up to 30% of his food. Also eating foods with a parrot is very good for your bonding as it is both a social and bonding experience for them, and as such is also a great way to introduce new fruits and vegetables into his diet.
I was a bit concerned about the digestibility of foods for him given his age as I have noticed a difference in my own digestion as I have grown older and was advising that because of the moisture content of the cooked food that I suggested that it would be better for his digestion as well as and additional source of water for him. Birds naturally eat a high moisture diet and also obtain a great deal of their bodily moisture from the foods that they eat. I often get concerned about dehydration in our bird when they are fed so much of their diet in a dry form as they must get the moisture from somewhere in order to digest these dry foods and so it is drawn from the surrounding tissues which with the whole grain/ vegetable base food that I suggested for him would not occur as it has adequate moisture levels. Another reason for my suggesting it is that it is lower in protein and fats than are commercial foods thereby reducing any additional risk of heart, liver and kidney diseases, which are more common as we age.
I am not sure what seed mixes are available in your area, perhaps Abba is and if so perhaps a 50/ 50 mic of Abba 1600C and Abba 1300 would be about right for Dudley. One is actually for smaller psittacines and contains some sunflower seeds and the other is a cockatiel mix with no sunflower seeds.

[JessiMuse]

Ah, I see. This is quite useful.

He rarely falls off his perch, and I've actually observed that it links to things that scare him. Once, he fell off his perch during a small earthquake aftershock (enough to rattle the walls). It wouldn't surprise me if it were a small seizure though. We've experienced it in old animals before.

As far as I know, he doesn't seem to experience any digestion issues, as his bowl movements are regular. He has access to water at all times (though sometimes he chooses to bathe in it. We have to change fairy often). I've heard that his species have a tendency to drop their food into their water before eating it. I've seen him do this before, I wonder if that is to increase their moisture intake?

Fresh fruits can be a little iffy for him. He'll drop the first piece, eat the second one, then drop the third piece (or vice versa). He would do this whether I'm eating it or not. We do give him these. My mom usually puts a slice of apple of whatever fruit she's cutting up, when making dinner sometimes.she'll do the same with certain vegetables, as she's making salad (he has a stronger connection with my mom, though he's still just as likely to bite her as he is me).

Since Dudley is still my parents' bird, I'll have to talk to them about changing his diet, as well as taking over the duty as giving him his food. I'm still living with them (working on moving out in the near future). Hopefully I can take over ownership of him after a few more years. Because of his old age though, I'm not sure if moving him with me out of the house would be a good idea.

Even with as old as he is, would it be a good idea to take him to an avian vet at all? He's never been to a veterinarian in general, because my mom thinks she can cure any bird ailment with some homemade concoction (she's raised and took care of birds for the longest time). I know I would have to crate train and vet train him beforehand so he doesn't get as stressed out (this is way later of course). Would there be any use to getting him checked out by an avian vet?

I'll be on the lookout for those seed mixes. Thank you for the suggestions.

[Wolf]

Unless there were some really pressing need to do so I would not move him from where he is living as that is a very stressful thing for any parrot and especially for one of his age. He would mourn the loss of any of his humans as if they had died as well as the added stress of a new and unfamiliar environment without the protection of his flock. No let him finish his life where he is, he will be happier.
Your mother may be well versed in herbalism and be able to do him a lot of good with that knowledge, but it does have its limits. It would be good if you could get him in for a checkup and blood work to make certain that he is healthy.
I would learn to read his body language and keep talking with him and working on him taking treats from you in a calm manner as his current means of taking the treat suggests that he is not trusting you to let him keep it, almost like he is used to someone taking it away from him. I also think that I would work on target training him first in the cage and then out of the cage.
My Senegal and my Amazon are both big on making soup out of their water and then fishing the pieces that they can back out to eat them, sometimes they just dip the piece of food into the water. I can't say for sure that it is always to moisten that piece of food or to rinse it off but at least part of the time I am sure that they are doing it to add moisture to the food. I was not meaning to suggest that he was having any problem with his digestion, it was meant more along the lines of that it would not cause any digestive issues should you choose to change his diet and it is his age that prompted me to mention it as I said earlier I have noticed changes in how my body process foods and I can tell you while he can't.

[Pajarita]

Please take him to an avian vet for a complete check up because healthy birds do NOT fall off perches as their toes 'lock' when in the crouching position they adopt when they sleep (to the point that a bird that dies in its sleep will still remain perched) so something is not as it should be.

[JessiMuse]

So I found out that Dudley is actually 27 years old, and will turn 28 somewhere in August.

Please take him to an avian vet for a complete check up because healthy birds do NOT fall off perches as their toes 'lock' when in the crouching position they adopt when they sleep (to the point that a bird that dies in its sleep will still remain perched) so something is not as it should be.

That's gonna be a problem. My since he's my parents' bird, I can't bring him to a vet. My parents absolutely refuse to do so, let alone let me do so. I talked to my mom about it, and she literally said: "I can't afford to go to the doctor, why should I take my bird?"

This really ticks me off, because he's part of the family. If I had cancer, she would risk being forever in dept to pay for my treatments, but if it's any of our pets, she doesn't care if they get so much of a sinus infection (with the exception of our dogs). She doesn't even believe that 30 years is considered old for his species, all because that pet store said they can live up to 80 or 90. They called Dudley a white-faced Amazon, which isn't even in the same genus let alone he species, so I doubt anything they said was remotely close to being true.

I'm sorry. I don't mean to rant at you guys about my trouble. It's just so frustrated, because I want what's absolutely best for him, and because he's not my bird, I can barely do anything about it, since they're not nearly as willing to give him the best. My mother can't work, and my father is retired, so we're all stuck on a fixed income, so in a way, I do understand why they're not quite as willing, but they're paying for me to go to college for crying out loud (which don't get me wrong, I am grateful beyond words), and the fact that they're more willing to do that than care for their bird that they've had "since he was a baby (according to my mom)", kinda baffles me. Dudley has literally been around my entire life, and I get concerned about his well being just as much as I would get concerned for any human members of our family's well being.