Birds and touching (making harnessing impossible)

[Birds are loud]

pajarita:

Her light schedule is solar. She is in a room with giant south facing windows. The only time the light schedule is not solar is when I am in the living room after dark. And I'm not sure what you are talking about high protein. The only time she gets high protein is when I feed her treats which she only gets as rewards. My chop does not contain legumes etc. So not sure where u came up with high protein. The only things I do with her or have ever done with her is trained her to let me touch her head, which she now enjoys head scratches, kisses (peck on the closed lips), spin, step up, she is target trained and I recall trained her. I am in the process of teaching her to waive. I didn't know there was really anything else I could do with her as far as bonding. No idea what tickle tickle is. I haven't even purchased a harness yet. There's no point if I can't even touch her wings.

Wolf:

She gets the chop a couple times a week after training and before her pellets. She usually cleans the bowl throwing a few less desired bits to the floor. My chop is assorted greens, assorted fruits, a small amount of root vegetables such as sweet potatoes, carrots, beets etc., an even smaller amount of steel cut oats followed by calcium powder.

The parrotlet isn't much of an issue. I'm working with her to stay on her cage and perches.

I got the conure in the first week of January 2015

40 is a variety of animals only hookbills currently are the two listed.

Fear of hands: well... She doesn't like it when I come in with my hands to fast she screams and locks her eyes on my hand. If she thinks I'm going for her when I reach to change her food or water she screams and again locks her eyes on the hand except in these scenarios she tries to bite. It's not every time just sometimes. She won't step up sometimes and instead Backs away from my hand. It's pretty much only if she thinks the hand is after her.

When I first get home she gets excited. Not to see me but because she knows she'll be let out of her cage. As I get closer to the cage her excitment increases. She does an inpatient excited dance. If she has already been out of the cage and I enter the room most times she does nothing. If she wants food she will scream once or twice unless I'm approaching her then she doesn't scream. If I approach she does one of two things. Sometimes she just watches me then once I'm at her cage she looks up at me inquisitively other times she will shake her wings leaning as far towards me as she can. I'm not sure why she does this but I know for sure it's not aggression. Sometimes it seems as though it's her eager to get a treat other times it's unclear.

She is out of her cage on the top or on her play stand from when I first open the cage in the morning until she puts herself to bed in the evening. Even then the door is open until either I go to bed or I go to work at midnight.

She does take treats from between the cage bars but this usually isn't necessary because she isn't caged.

She flies on command when I recall her but only about half the time. As I said she is recall trained. About the only other time she flies is if she gets frightend by say the garbage truck banging the dumpster down. That is when if we are in the room she will fly to one of our shoulders. She is fully flighted.

[Wolf]

I apologise for all the questions that I have been asking, I am just trying to get enough information to see what is going on in your birds life that may be affecting her behavior. I do have one more question and should have already asked it, but was rather pressed for time when I saw that you had replied to my last post and I wanted to at least let you know that I was listening to you. Does she have a band on one of her legs? If she does there should be a two digit number turned 90 degrees from the other numbers and letters, this should be the year she was hatched. Could you share that number with us if she is wearing a band? I am thinking that it is probably a 13 or 14 but could be wrong.
Actually your bird should be getting the chop that you are making for her on a daily basis. The reason that Pajarita mentioned the protein is that pellets are like seed in that the amount of protein in them is more than the bird requires which means that if most of her food is coming from pellets then the diet is too high in protein. Pellets should make up no more than about 30% of the birds daily diet, although I think that 20 to 25% would be better. They should have no more than 30% of their diet being fresh fruit and the remainder of their diet should be whole grains, vegetables and a few legumes. The amount of protein in her current diet may have something to do with her aggression, how much of an effect, I am not sure as to some degree her age is a factor.
I am thinking that this bird is around two years old although I don't really have any evidence to support this, This species usually reaches maturity at about 2 years of age and if so then she may very well be a bit hormonal as this is the tail end of breeding season and so that would start showing an improvement soon. The posture that you described is a defensive posture meant to tell you that wherever she was at or on is hers and for you to back off or get bitten. Or at least this is what it means when my Senegal does it. Being more aggressive than normal is one of the signs of a bird that is hormonal.
I would think that the person who had this bird before you got it chased the bird around to catch it, most likely when it was in its cage. This is partly conjecture but is based on the description of how she acts in regards to your hands.
I am thinking that the bird needs more one on one time with you, even if all that it does is to perch on you quietly. I think that is what the screams are all about, well at least most of them. The trust issue, need for more personal attention, and screaming, I believe, are all part and parcel of the same problem and the remedy of one of them is the remedy for all of them.
When you first got the bird did you do anything specific toward taming the bird until you started leaving it out of its cage most of the time? As I said there are often no easy answers as everything is all tied together and I am still working this through my mind. Hopefully when you reply to this I will be able to give you a more precise course of action to take.

[Michael]

The best preparation for a bird to prepare to wear a harness isn't petting but rather grabbing. Use positive reinforcement training to teach the parrot to accept being touched, cupped, and grabbed around the neck because it is a feeling not unlike the harness will provide. Further, use positive reinforcement training to teach the parrot to allow you to come near, touch, and open its wings because it is necessary to put it's wings through the harness. Everything gets built up progressively through positive reinforcement training. Make sure you actually understand positive reinforcement training because it is not merely the act of giving treats.

This type of prep lays the foundation for harness training. Achieving the above absolutely does not mean you can just stick the harness on. You have to finalize the harness training by teaching the parrot to tolerate, put-on, and accept the harness. When done successfully, the bird will actually help you put the harness on and be on board with the process.

The taming mentioned above is requisite for the harness training. Target training and some trick training is requisite to the taming. Both you and the bird have to learn how positive training works in order to apply it to the rest.

This is explained in great detail between my book and harness training DVD. The DVD is strictly the harness training part so please refer to the book for the requisite taming, training, and positive reinforcement understanding concepts. Take your time; the results are worth it. Best of luck to you!

[Birds are loud]

The wing shaking and leaning in towards me upon approach to the cage I know for certain is not aggression/defensive. Sometimes it's an eager nervousness in hopes of receiving a treat.

I definitely understand what possative reinforcement training is.

The problem is everyone keeps say well just get near or touch her wings and increas the duration etc. I have tried in the past to slowly work my hand closer and closer to her wing. I would start from a distance she was clearly comfortable with and then slowly move in a little closer. When her body language relaxed I would click and treat. The problem was once I got to a certain distance that was it. Body language wouldn't relax no mater how long my hand was there. My likley botched attempt at that training led her to start feather chewing so I stopped. She has since stopped feather chewing.

I'm not apposed to trying it again or trying something new just starting what happened when I tried last time.

I too think her previous owners did all kinds of things they shouldn't have. The man who I bought her from spun me this ludicrous tale about her being only one yet she was in full adult plumage. So anyones gues as to her past experiences.

Also no band on the conure

[Birds are loud]

I am going to increase target training using my finger to see if this will help with the hand fear.

[Wolf]

And that is why I have asked all of the questions. There are conflicting behaviors and I haven't figured out why as of yet. There are pieces of the puzzle that are missing. I actually expect that but there are usually enough clues to fill most of the missing pieces in, but not always.
If you are going to start target training again/ more, what would you think about starting the target training all over from the beginning, that is starting it in the cage as if this bird has never been target trained before and using the way that is in this link? viewtopic.php?f=11&t=227

[Birds are loud]

Could be worth trying.

[Pajarita]

pajarita:

Her light schedule is solar. She is in a room with giant south facing windows. The only time the light schedule is not solar is when I am in the living room after dark. And I'm not sure what you are talking about high protein. The only time she gets high protein is when I feed her treats which she only gets as rewards. My chop does not contain legumes etc. So not sure where u came up with high protein. The only things I do with her or have ever done with her is trained her to let me touch her head, which she now enjoys head scratches, kisses (peck on the closed lips), spin, step up, she is target trained and I recall trained her. I am in the process of teaching her to waive. I didn't know there was really anything else I could do with her as far as bonding. No idea what tickle tickle is. I haven't even purchased a harness yet. There's no point if I can't even touch her wings.

A strict solar schedule does not mean that she is exposed to daylight, it means that she follows it naturally throughout the different seasons. You mentioned coming home at 9 am and her going to sleep at 7 pm but sometimes staying up after dark while a solar schedule means lights on AFTER the sky is completely lit (and that means around 8:30 am in the winter and 5:45 am in the summer) and off when the sun is halfway down (only 3:30 pm in the winter), going to sleep when night falls naturally without any exposure to artificial lights (which would not happen when you are in the living room).

The high protein came from the fact that you feed pellets and seeds in the middle of the day -apparently (correct me if I am wrong), every day.

Tickle - tickle is their lifting their wings so you can tickle them under them (they all love this but it's not to be done as a normal interaction because it's sexually arousing).

[Birds are loud]

Well not sure how yall will feel about this or even how I feel about this but using flooding for the first two sessions I am now able to hold her beak. During the second session I switched to possative reinforcement training. I personally feel that flooding has its time and place but I'm not sure this was it. Time will tell. This though will make touching other parts of her body much easier. Even if you forgoet harness training being able to touch her is important for care as well.

And before anyone jumps down my throat for using flooding so soon after posting here. This has been an issue since I got the bird. It's something we have struggled with for our entire relationship. She came to me knowing nothing and using only possative reinforcement training I taught her basic tricks, target training, to enjoy head scratches, step up and flight recall. Although we are still having some trouble with the last two.

I will be adjusting her diet as well to include more chop and less pellets.

Thanks for the help and I'll be sticking around to continue learning.

[Wolf]

Well, I am not going to jump down your throat for this although I feel that in time you will discover that it is really not a good idea as it has a tendency to destroy rather than to build trust. Trust is the key to our relationship with our birds but it is a two way street as we need to learn to trust our birds as much as we need them to trust us. without trust there is no relationship as the bird will simply refuse to have anything to do with you and if you insist too much it will resort to biting as a means of self defense.
That is why we are all here. to learn about our birds and to share what we learn with each other. Please be aware that there are no experts on parrots here, unless you wish to count the parrots, themselves, the rest of us are here as students of our birds as well as their care givers.