DYA and YCA

[Jackiebuckdaily]

Hello everyone!

I am new to this board, my name is Jack. This is my new world that I am wanting advice, tips and suggestions.

I am getting a 15 year old Yellow Crowned Amazon (Rocky) and 14 year Double Yellow Headed Amazon (Adrian). They are technically my first parrots. They used to be my late uncles from 15 years ago. But after he and his fiancee split, she ended up keeping the birds. The YCA turned on her because I guess he attached himself to my uncle. He also suffers from separation anxiety because after she and uncle split, she ended up giving her birds to her mother and unfortunately after 3 years, her mother passed. Rocky also cannot be separated from Adrian and shares a cage with her and can't literally not be next to her. He wants to part in mating with Adrian but is attached to her. She would say that Rocky would have to die before Adrian because otherwise he would have a heart attack. Supposedly he's a biter and even she (the fiancee) who consider these birds as her kids, can't handle Rocky especially because of his attitude and biting.

So here's the background story. I believe in God and signs and this is how it begins. For years I wanted a bird but my fiancee told me that I had to wait a month after we're married to get a bird. She and I love to go to pet stores to play with the animals and especially the birds. I got when I am happy, sad, bored, etc. The next day I was giving her hypotheticals, one being, if an old lady is about to die and wants to pass on a free bird and cage, can we break the one month agreement. She said, knowing me, I would find that old lady and get the bird... so she said no. THE NEXT day, while I was at work. I was typing and looking up birds and my uncle's ex fiancee came to my head, so I emailed her asking how she and Rocky were. In a Nutshell, she was praying for someone to come and take the birds from her. Someone she trusted and not a bird sanctuary. She is moving and working with a lot of customers and really can't give her the same attention, mind and patience that she once could back in the day. Especially the biting, in which I will include below.

I am getting both birds for free, plus their cage (I am going to buy an even bigger cage) because I can't just get Rocky without Adrian (Rocky would die.)

I am indeed renting a house, so it will be perfect seeing that these two in particular, love to have yelling contest... which brings me to the next queston. I am getting a job as a TV reporter (God willing) in May and it could be in Florida or my current state (Maine) and I might have to live in an apartment. How can I do my part while in the house to train them to yell at certain times.... or to get them to stop biting. I know that I am going to get bit, I get it... but I don't want to be attacked haha.

I know that these birds will be challenging but they were my uncle (who passed as well) so they are reasons that I am willing to take these birds on forever. I was going to get my own parrot (conure).

I have been doing a lot of research and that's definitely what I have been reading a lot about! I have also been experimenting with an amazon that I visit. Watching the eyes and being gentle and respectful. I will be probably getting these lovely birds early to mid October.

If I need to, what kind of apartment should I be looking towards when the time comes of me perhaps having to move from my rental house to another state?

What about when I should begin to handle these birds? They don't know me and they will be in a new home. Their owner of 15 years won't be around (she'll be in the picture) but not physically around. When will it be a good time to start handling the birds? I am extremely outgoing, charismatic and I love birds. Not to be cocky but I have way of calming them down and respecting boundaries... but these are completely NEW boundaries and a new playing field... they are now my birds and I am trying to load up my brain so that, when the time comes, I am not completely ignorant. Sailboat, so you live in an apartment/Condo? I read that Amazons do get loud, but at certain times and are not as loud as Macaws, Conures, Cockatoos. When I mean as loud, I am not talking about their vocal frequencies or pitch, I mean how often they go crazy.

How are birds typically with car rides. I live in Maine (where I will graduate from Husson University) and come May, I might have to leave if I receive a job opportunity as a TV reporter in South Florida.

Another question that I have is the fact that in Maine... it gets dark around 4p.m., late October... will the birds be more inclined to go to bed at that time versus at 9p.m.? I fortunately will be in a house until May and then from there... it's I don't know. If I get a job as TV reporter in Maine, I will continue to be in this house for a bit longer and then probably my own house or apartment. If I do end up in an apartment while in Maine... will they make their morning and dusk squawking earlier and earlier? (Earlier mornings and then at 4 vs. 9?). Hopefully that makes sense.

Florida tends to have cement walls (thicker.)

Sorry for all of the questions. I am very much inquisitive and I will ask tons of questions. I am nervous and excited about receiving these Amazons and I don't want to be arrogant nor ignorant when it comes to taking care of them or acting like a pro when I really know Jack squat!

A few more questions:

How do I retrain the birds? I heard that you should only train one bird at a time... how do I do that, when Rocky is very possessive of Adrian and can't and won't be separated from her? He shares a cage with her as well. I want to break the territorial attitude that I know that Rocky has with his cage and Adrian... how should I go about doing that? I know that I should use a food as a way to get them to come onto my finger, but should I be holding two birds at once or one at a time?

And how many times a day should you feed the amazons? I know what you shouldn't feed it but I want to make sure that I don't over feed it and indulge in treats.

I just bought The Parrot Wizard Guide to Well-Behaved Parrots. Thoughts/reviews?

[Wolf]

I have not read Michael's book and neither have my birds, the best I can get from them is to shred it, that's what they do with all my books when they get to them, maybe they are hinting at something.
Lots of questions, that is a good sign. I am sorry that the conditions of you getting these bird are such as they are and wish it were otherwise. I would imagine that long before you get a job as a reporter that you will have to intern first, but I really don't know much about this area of employment. The only apartments that I would consider with these birds would be one that is sound proofed as a Screaming Amazon is loud, very loud and since you have two of them they may well lapse into a screaming contest to see who can scream the louder.
I seriously doubt that you are going to have much success in changing the cage territorialness or the protectiveness of the male towards the female Amazon and may in fact discover that the female is probably just as protective of the cage and her mate as is the male, with the only real difference being that the male may be more aggressive in these areas than the female.
Whenever a parrot is rehomed or moved from one environment to another the are scared and will take time to acclimate to the new place, even if they know and trust you, which is not the case here so these bird are going to also have to get accustomed to you and you have to earn their trust as they do not just give it to you.
Based on the things that you have said I would say that these birds are likely to be a bit hormonal especially if they have been living in a human lighting schedule, so that is one thing that we need to look at as is their diet as it not only affects normal behavior it also is a strong factor in their reproductive cycle and if it is not the right diet it can prevent them from exiting the breeding cycle and it can also help to bring it on.
These are the easy questions and all of the rest are much harder to answer as they must be based on the individual parrot, and its behaviors. They are all highly social creatures and they are very intelligent and you must build a relationship with them on an individual basis and this will be even harder as you have a mated pair. They have each other and for their emotional needs they don't really need you. This is not to say that it is impossible, just that it is much more time consuming and requires much more effort on your part and patience. How long will it be before you can start to handle either one of them or both of them, I can't honestly say as it is dependent on the bird and how soon they will allow it. And that is the only answer that I can offer you for most of your questions at this time.
I have a Grey parrot that I have handled since the minute that we met, although she will not allow anyone else to touch her. I have a Senegal that even after she chose me for her person that it was almost a year before her hormones settled down to where I could handle her without getting eaten alive. I have an Amazon that after 2 and 1/2 years is just barely coming to the outside of her cage and has just begun to allow my Lady to touch her and it has been only 5 days since she started to accept an almond as a treat from her hand and this bird totally loves almonds and other nuts.

[Jackiebuckdaily]

Thank you so much for your timely response. I intern in January until May (I graduate in May). Can you elaborate on the Short time frame will be my advantage thing? I definitely am trying to go into this with a mature and realistic attitude. These birds have bonded with their previous owners... I say owners because it was my uncle and his ex fiancee... but especially with my uncle. Then his ex fiancee gave them to her mother... THEY LOVED LOVED LOVED the mother and she loved them that she had them on her will and then back to the ex fiancee because the mother passed away... so I have some hope that they will like me lol. Supposedly the ex fiancee has a boyfriend that they like... they seem to like males (maybe because of dominance.) I am very outgoing and love researching... maybe this will help me. I also don't mind working with them both... or try.

[Pajarita]

First of all, welcome to the forum and DOUBLE BULLY for you for getting the parrots!!! Sometimes, things work out for us just the way we want them, right?

OK, now, let's see. First thing I would do is take them to an avian vet for a complete physical (and ask for a bile acids as well as the CBC and the usual chem panel). Second thing I would do is switch them to a better diet (they might be on a good one now but there is always room for improvement and amazons NEED a low protein diet which I doubt they are now getting). I use and recommend gloop and raw produce for breakfast and all day picking and a good quality seed/nut mix (nuts should not be a part of the mix itself but purchased separately and roasted). I know that most people (and avian vets) would say that pellets are the best dietary option but I've been doing research for many years and have reached the conclusion that they are not.

Now, as to behavioral questions. Have they been DNA'd a male and female? Because if they haven't and have not laid eggs, I would do it. I've never had a problem with cage territoriality. Not in the long term, that is. I know that people say this is common in parrots and I am not arguing the point because, in captivity, it is BUT, in my personal experience, it's all in the husbandry because parrots that trust their keepers 100%, are not in breeding season and have not been forced to accept handling they don't appreciate usually have no problem with you putting your hand inside their cage and, at most, just do a bit of bluffing (my quaker) but don't really mind. Having said that, I would not recommend you stick your hand in there until you have established a firm bond with them and are full into the resting season (meaning no sexual hormones). Which brings me to one of your questions: yes, in the NE (where I also live) during the winter, it's night at 4:30 pm but a strict solar schedule is not only the only way they will have a healthy endocrine system, it's also the only way you can keep amazons which tend to be strong, large, highly aggressive and VERY defensive of their mates.

Now, how to bond with them. Well, for one thing, I would not allow the previous owner to visit them for, at the very least, one whole year. You NEED these birds to bond with you (aggressive amazons are no joke!) and allowing their previous human to visit will just confuse them and make the process much, much longer. Explain to her that this is done for the birds' benefit and that you will send her updates and pictures but that her coming to visit with the consequence of the birds getting all excited about it would make them believe they are going to be leaving with her and, when this doesn't happen, they will be confused and depressed and will set the process back quite a few steps -which is not fair to them. You can't explain to a bird that this person they lived with for years is now just a visitor. Aside from that, take your time, don't push things, spend as much time as you can with them talking, singing (amazons LOVE songs with a passion!), just open their cage and let them out, don't try to physically interact with them... lots of praise and an occasional treat go a loooong way toward making them accept a new human. For the first few months, they will be on their honeymoon period so wait until they start showing their true colors before you start target training them. There is really no rush because, in reality, as long as the parrot steps up and down, that's all you will need - and handfed parrots always do. Training might deepen a bond (when it's done correctly, which is not just a matter of getting the bird to perform but also getting it to perform without flooding, making it hungry or stressing it out) but the bond has to be there to begin with because training, by itself, does not create it.

I think that, if you do things right (and it looks as if you are really putting your mind to it), you will be VERY happy with them and them with you.

[Jackiebuckdaily]

Thank you so much, your post was very encouraging!

But the birds are for sure Male and Female. They were DNA tested, especially the female, Adrian. I have to definitely find out there diet and my goal isn't to train them in the aspect of "Do this and do that..." as much fun as that would be haha, but definitely to bond with me and like me enough to not be stressed. I should begin handling them when again? Give them a week or just watch them?

The previous owner will definitely NOT be visiting them especially within a year because of the fact that she lives in NJ and I am in Maine.

[Pajarita]

I would allow them to come out every day and watch them carefully to see if they want to interact with me or not - but don't be discouraged if they don't at the beginning! To know if they want to interact, watch their body language. You will notice that they perch as close to where you are as possible and actually lean their bodies forward, their eyes might pin a bit but their tails will not be fanned and their feathers will not be 'stuck' to their body or fluffed up (pinned eyes, fanned tail and 'fluffed up' neck and top of head means aggression). Start by acknowledging them by standing right in front of them (I always recommend their perch is at eye level when one is standing up) .and talking to them (read: praise praise praise), offer a treat each (but only one) and, if you see that they are relaxed and paying attention, start by caressing their beak on top (parrots cannot move their top beak the same way that we cannot move our upper jaw so if you put your finger on top of it, they can't bite it unless they throw their head back). Once you get them used to this and you see they actually look forward to it, start with the side caress (put your thumb on the right side of the beak and caress the other side with your index, kind of like very softly pinching with a caressing motion) - this reminds them of what the parents do when they are in the nest and getting ready to feed them. Amazons are all perch potatoes and hardly ever go flying around so as long as you keep them at a solar schedule and put their dinner in their bowl when the sun is halfway down to the horizon, they will gladly go back inside for it. But keep in mind that this works only if you are not free-feeding high protein all day long because, if you are, they would have no incentive to go back in.

Also, I forgot to answer one of your questions - the one about the screaming. In my personal experience (bluefront, redlored, yellow nape, yellow crown, lilac crowned and panama) the only ones that scream loud when in a pair are the bluefronts.

[Jackiebuckdaily]

So I finally received Rocky and Adrian two days ago. Yesterday they finally walked around and explored their cage. Side to the very top. Rocky grunts and charges the newspapers on top and tears them up and climbs and Adrian hangs out on top of the door.

Originally I was told that they will not like me right away and it will take them time to warm up to me. I was told that Rocky is extremely overprotective of Adrian, to the point that you wouldn't even be able to touch her without Rocky attacking. I was told he is cage territorial and over protective with his mate of 15 years.

Yesterday after hanging out with them from 5-9:30. I picked up Rocky and Adrian. I get Rocky to say "UP UP... UP UP..." and that's my cue to pick him up and Adrian at the same time. He hasn't bitten me yet, Adrian has but because she lost her balance twice.

I feel good, I have always been able to calm birds down and get their trust. But I would be a liar if I said that I wasn't nervous getting these birds that had a long history and experience of aggression and trauma (separation anxiety).

I can't leave the room for a minute or else they cry and when I return, Adrian says "I MISS YOU, I MISSSSS YOU BABY, I MISS YOU!". I tested this and it's in context. When I first met them and even earlier yesterday, they couldn't care less and wouldn't leave the inside of their cage. Now they both say up up up.

I work with Rocky mostly and try to get his approval before dealing with Adrian. He perches at the top of the cage and I work with Adrian on the door, face to face.

Adrian is DYH and speaks and sings perfectly. We had a sing off yesterday. Rocky the YCA sounds like a raven and doesn't speak that well. I compliment him and speak to him like my baby.

Tips on a healthy long term diet and ways to exercise them? I use organic oatmeal for breakfast and made scramble eggs today. Fruits too. How often for each and long term tips.

I already love them! The old owner and her boyfriend was beyond surprised and shocked that I earned this trust so quickly. It's funny because I sat down yesterday and pretended to cry (before holding them) and they looked at each other and started grunting and spoke to each other without actual words. I joke around and say that they are saying "We like him... lets give him a chance."

Rocky also, working slowly allows me to scratch his head and rub his beak. I am a bit worried however, that maybe it's because we are in a honeymoon stage and they are faking this good behavior. I am also worried about mating season, making sure they don't and recognizing those patterns.

I have a way bigger cage than what they were in. So maybe he was moody in the first place was because he was cramped, mad at his old owner because of people he liked coming and going. Plus, supposedly he likes men more and Adrian is afraid of men. Except we're close. She tells me to come here.

range::green::green2::greenyellow::green1:

[Pajarita]

HEY, congrats!!!! Now, please don't assume that you have gained their trust because you haven't. I don't mean to pop your balloon (believe you me!) but they are in what we call the honeymoon stage and on their best behavior - which will not continue forever. So, if I were you, I would not 'work' with either one for a couple of weeks and, when they do bite you (and they will)
don't think that you did something different to earn it because that will not be the case. It will just be the next step in your relationship and when you start learning about their true personalities, what to avoid and what is OK.

Now, no eggs. Eggs are full of fat, protein and bad cholesterol and are not part of any parrot natural diet and are especially bad for amazons which require a low protein diet. I don't use oatmeal for my birds but I do use oat groats. I suggest you check the diet section for gloop recipes as it's particularly ideal for amazons.

[liz]

Amazons are loving creatures but they also back talk like little kids. I have been told "NO" and "SHUT UP" quite a few times. They also throw tantrums when they don't get their way.