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Refusing to step up

Discuss the methods and techniques of clicker training, target training and bonding. These are usually the first steps in training a young parrot.

Re: Refusing to step up

Postby seagoatdeb » Sat Nov 19, 2016 3:30 pm

Pajarita wrote:
seagoatdeb wrote:
Pajarita wrote:He doesn't want to leave the room. Parrots decide whether they want to do something or not and, personally, I don't believe in insisting or trying to train them out of making their own decisions... They are smart enough to know what they want and the same way that I would not push a person to do something they don't want to do, I don't push a parrot. I would do it with a dog but not with a parrot.


Parrots will push each other, and Gaugan will not let Sunny do some things he wants to do. Thats the way it is and it is perfectly natural and they have learned to understand each other. I can agree with you up to a point. Of couse you dont over push but you shouldnt spoil the parrot either. Its not good for them. Brandon is correct, we all have to do things we dont want to sometimes. We learn to all fit in to the flock. When parrots know the routines and everything is stable they are happy.


Parrots don't need to learn to 'fit in the flock' and they don't do anything they don't want to do - there is no such thing in the wild and, as you know, I advocate emulating natural conditions as much as possible. If a parrot wants to fly to another tree, no other parrot stops him, and, if a parrot does not want to fly to another tree while the others do, no other parrot pushes him to do it. That's the way a flock works... I normally use the word 'democracy' to describe it but, in reality, it's complete anarchy :lol: because every parrot decides for itself. In captivity, we take away the greatest majority of the decisions they should be making on their own and that, in itself, it's extremely stressful to them (again, as you know, I advocate eliminating as many sources of stress as possible for them). As to Gaugan and Sunny's relationship, I don't know exactly what you are referring to when you say that Gaugan does not allow Sunny to do things he wants to do but I doubt that this means Gaugan preventing Sunny from going or not going into another room which is, basically, what the issue with Mango is about.


Pajarita, I am sure everything you are saying is true for your huge flock of rehomed parrots. You have a lot of experience there and I respect it and I have had rehomed parrots too. But for us owners of just a few parrots that we got as babies, there is a whole different dynamic. We are all as closely connected as family and we all learn to give and take and our parrots spend huge amounts of time with us. You coud learn a lot from us in this area you dont have much experience in. If Sunny goes where Gaugan does not want him to she chases him off. As many times as she needs to, to be okay. I am actually a lot nicer to him and they both trust me more than each other. But they care about each other and spend a lot of time together.

Gaugan will go everywhere. Sunny was more timid. I sometimes had to persist to get him to go to different rooms. It was never forcing but it was continual progress due to my persistence. He now has an extra play area in another room, and if he could tell me, I am sure he thinks my encouragment was worth his greater enjoyment of life. He now is a parrot who will get tucked in my jacket and go over to my daughters house and happily hang with her parrots. He makes cute little noises all the way over. If I hadnt persistented he would have had a much smaller less happy life. Gaugan did spend some time not allowing Sunny to go near people or go to another room that she had claimed as hers, and because I intervened and let Gaugan know she was going to far, she finally gave in and let him. Brandon has a close relationship with his parrots and he will find his way by a combination of encouragment and allowing. Training and retraining is a form of communication and encouragment and learning.
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seagoatdeb
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Re: Refusing to step up

Postby ParrotsForLife » Sun Nov 20, 2016 11:00 am

Pajarita wrote:
seagoatdeb wrote:
Pajarita wrote:He doesn't want to leave the room. Parrots decide whether they want to do something or not and, personally, I don't believe in insisting or trying to train them out of making their own decisions... They are smart enough to know what they want and the same way that I would not push a person to do something they don't want to do, I don't push a parrot. I would do it with a dog but not with a parrot.


Parrots will push each other, and Gaugan will not let Sunny do some things he wants to do. Thats the way it is and it is perfectly natural and they have learned to understand each other. I can agree with you up to a point. Of couse you dont over push but you shouldnt spoil the parrot either. Its not good for them. Brandon is correct, we all have to do things we dont want to sometimes. We learn to all fit in to the flock. When parrots know the routines and everything is stable they are happy.


Parrots don't need to learn to 'fit in the flock' and they don't do anything they don't want to do - there is no such thing in the wild and, as you know, I advocate emulating natural conditions as much as possible. If a parrot wants to fly to another tree, no other parrot stops him, and, if a parrot does not want to fly to another tree while the others do, no other parrot pushes him to do it. That's the way a flock works... I normally use the word 'democracy' to describe it but, in reality, it's complete anarchy :lol: because every parrot decides for itself. In captivity, we take away the greatest majority of the decisions they should be making on their own and that, in itself, it's extremely stressful to them (again, as you know, I advocate eliminating as many sources of stress as possible for them). As to Gaugan and Sunny's relationship, I don't know exactly what you are referring to when you say that Gaugan does not allow Sunny to do things he wants to do but I doubt that this means Gaugan preventing Sunny from going or not going into another room which is, basically, what the issue with Mango is about.

So what would you call a Mate preventing the other bird from eating lol or if another bird wants to preen the other and isn't allowed see they cant do whatever they want.
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Re: Refusing to step up

Postby ParrotsForLife » Sun Nov 20, 2016 11:02 am

Mango loves to go downstairs so after shower time I could take him down there and he will learn that after shower time he gets to play in his favourite part of the house.
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Re: Refusing to step up

Postby Pajarita » Sun Nov 20, 2016 12:22 pm

Brandon, mates never prevent the other mate from eating in the wild, this only happens in captivity and it's only due to the abnormal conditions they are kept. Same thing with mate-bonded birds and preening... a

Seagoatdeb, with all due respect to your knowledge of raising babies which I readily admit I don't have, there is a philosophical basic difference between how you and I regard bird husbandry: you view your birds as pets while I don't. You also believe that flooding techniques are perfectly acceptable, which I don't and forcing a bird to go where it doesn't go to falls square under this category. In my personal experience, allowing birds to decide what they want to do works out perfectly. It might take longer for the bird to do something I think it's good for him/her but, if I wait long enough, the bird does it - and all of its own initiative without any stress whatsoever. Something I believe makes it much more valuable for his self-esteem and adjustment to captivity. I simply don't believe in imposing my human view of which behavior is right and which is wrong on them and I seriously doubt I would change this if I had a baby to raise. Nobody/birdy does this to them in the wild and captive-bred parrots psychological make-up is identical to the wild ones so I am afraid that the argument that captive-bred needs to have a different dynamic than wild ones doesn't convince me. I do understand the concept of 'guiding' the dynamics of a group, I do it with dogs because they are domesticated and actually need behavior parameters for them to be well-adjusted, and I do with parrots, in a way, when I gradually introduce a new one but that's about the extent of my interference.
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Re: Refusing to step up

Postby ParrotsForLife » Sun Nov 20, 2016 2:15 pm

Yes I agree with you there Pajarita but Mango is in captivity so its natural to him and would be different if I had a bird from the wild.
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Re: Refusing to step up

Postby seagoatdeb » Sun Nov 20, 2016 5:03 pm

Pajarita wrote:Brandon, mates never prevent the other mate from eating in the wild, this only happens in captivity and it's only due to the abnormal conditions they are kept. Same thing with mate-bonded birds and preening... a

Seagoatdeb, with all due respect to your knowledge of raising babies which I readily admit I don't have, there is a philosophical basic difference between how you and I regard bird husbandry: you view your birds as pets while I don't. You also believe that flooding techniques are perfectly acceptable, which I don't and forcing a bird to go where it doesn't go to falls square under this category. In my personal experience, allowing birds to decide what they want to do works out perfectly. It might take longer for the bird to do something I think it's good for him/her but, if I wait long enough, the bird does it - and all of its own initiative without any stress whatsoever. Something I believe makes it much more valuable for his self-esteem and adjustment to captivity. I simply don't believe in imposing my human view of which behavior is right and which is wrong on them and I seriously doubt I would change this if I had a baby to raise. Nobody/birdy does this to them in the wild and captive-bred parrots psychological make-up is identical to the wild ones so I am afraid that the argument that captive-bred needs to have a different dynamic than wild ones doesn't convince me. I do understand the concept of 'guiding' the dynamics of a group, I do it with dogs because they are domesticated and actually need behavior parameters for them to be well-adjusted, and I do with parrots, in a way, when I gradually introduce a new one but that's about the extent of my interference.


Yes we have different take on things, but your take on me is not quite on the mark. But suffice it to say, I strive for quality of life for my parrots. It breaks my heart to see house bound parrots.
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Re: Refusing to step up

Postby seagoatdeb » Sun Nov 20, 2016 5:51 pm

Gaugan has often wanted people to take her from A to B. If I put new food in her cage she expects me to put her in her cage close to the new food. It may be conditioning but thats what she wants. She will let anyone take her from A to B as long as it is where she wants to go. Anyway, both parrots are out in the morning to hang with us. Then we put their food mix in the cage and one of us puts Gaugan in her cage. She will almost leap on the hand of anyone who will do that.

Sunny always went to his cage himself, but lately he wants me to put him in. Today my hubby put Gagaun in for her breaky and I was busy with a phone call. Then I hear this little chirping and whistling and there is Sunny calling me to tell me he is waiting for me to put him in his cage. He can so easily get in himself but he wanted me to do it and gave happy litte noises all the way. The point I am making here, is this doesnt happen in the wild. When you have only a few parrots the realtionships gets much closer with humans.

I had to go out for a few hours last week and the parrots were out and hubby was home. I put Gaugan on my hubbys arm of his chair and told her I had to go bye bye and she could hang with him. I have found that when I tell her then she is not upset with me when I come home. She will even allow My hubby to preen her while I am gone. Sunny hung out on the arm of my chair as close as he could get to my hubby and Gaugan while I was gone. He still will not go on anyone but me, but he wants to join in as much as he can.

I cant say I view my parrots as pets. To me they are members of my family. They are in a category, somewhere between pets and children but no not exactly like that either and we all shape each other. We are not really flock mates either but it is something that is a close interspecies relationship.
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Re: Refusing to step up

Postby Pajarita » Mon Nov 21, 2016 12:41 pm

seagoatdeb wrote:Yes we have different take on things, but your take on me is not quite on the mark. But suffice it to say, I strive for quality of life for my parrots. It breaks my heart to see house bound parrots.


That's because you assume that 'house-bound' parrots are not as happy as parrots that go out but assumptions are not always correct.
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Re: Refusing to step up

Postby ParrotsForLife » Mon Nov 21, 2016 12:45 pm

Pajarita wrote:
seagoatdeb wrote:Yes we have different take on things, but your take on me is not quite on the mark. But suffice it to say, I strive for quality of life for my parrots. It breaks my heart to see house bound parrots.


That's because you assume that 'house-bound' parrots are not as happy as parrots that go out but assumptions are not always correct.

I wouldn't call that an assumption thats a bit obvious of course a bird would rather go outside than be inside all day depending on what they do indoors vs outdoors.
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Tiko, African grey, Oscar, BFA
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Re: Refusing to step up

Postby seagoatdeb » Mon Nov 21, 2016 4:24 pm

Parrots have a need to go outside for quality of life and for health reasons too. They need the sunshine when it is warm enough. Inside air is more poluted than outside air. Even if you have a lot of room and lots of room to fly inside you cant provide the wind currents, the sounds of being in nature and the pure joy they get when they are used to being outside. I understand rehomes can take a long time to be okay outside, but some rehomes have already been outside by their previous owners and are quite happy to be taken outside in an outside cage if thats the only way you can do it. It saddens me to think that many parrots who would be capable of going outside and have in the past can only look through a window. Any owner who has a baby parrot can easily take them outside and they look so forward to it. So yes, I think most housebound parrots are not enjoying a full life, but I will leave an open mind for exceptions to this.
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