Debugging 1 person step up and come out problem

[entrancedbymyGCC]

Bill is having increasing difficulty with Scotty stepping up and coming out of the cage for him, while I am not having a problem at all. In addition, once Scotty is out, he is usually quite happy to be with Bill. If I have him out and offer to hand him over, he happily steps onto Bill. The only thing I can identify in Bill's technique that is potentially problematic is that he tends to think the bird SHOULD obey the step-up command, and if the bird is saying "no" by refusing to approach, he tends to go closer and that's the point at which Scotty will often, but not always, strike and/or bite. When he first came to us, he would step up obediently for either of us. Now the situation is more that he wants to be with me, so he offers no resistance to the idea, and at the same time, the more he is reluctant to come out for Bill, the more he bites and chases him away. I tend to think Bill needs to start from scratch, basically training him to step up with a reward each time, but obviously since Scotty already "knows" what is expected of him, it's more a matter of motivation and of extincting the bite response. I tend to feel things will go rapidly downhill if the request is invariably pushed to the biting stage and then the interaction ends. What I'm not as sure about is, would it be better for Bill to always ASK from a distance and go away if the bird says "no" by passively refusing, but reward lavishly when the bird says "yes" OR (perhaps also) once the bird has said no with an aggressive response, continue asking until the desired behavior has occurred and then reward. This might take gloves as that beak is fairly formidable.

I don't really understand why Scotty isn't eager to be with him to start with. Although Bill's style is a little more abrupt than mine (he will bring the bird to chest for a hug rather than waiting for him to offer to cuddle), he patiently sits with Scotty, gives him nuts, watches TV with him and all sorts of things which could be construed as positive.

I do suspect there is some element of "history with men" folded into the picture. In fact, doing my best Sherlock Holmes turn, I think Scotty has been roughly groomed by a left handed man. I could give you a bunch of reasons why I think this, but it might get boring.

What is the best way to figure out what is going wrong, and, in particular, what Scotty's perspective is?

How does one decide how to balance between avoiding the situation where the bird wants to say "no" and persevering in the situation once the bird has gone to the beak and you don't want to reward the bite by backing off?

[Kathleen]

Hand taming requires you to watch the bird's body language. The method I used with Kili (put hand closer and closer and reward, gradually increasing closeness of hand and increasing duration) required that the bird's fear and aggression not be pushed too far. I pushed or tested the bird's comfort level a very small amount after each try. I waited until the bird calmed down and before it reacted (bite/fly/move away/step away/any sign of aggression or fear) I rewarded. This is how I set myself up for success. I watch the bird intently and am quick to reward it for tolerating what I want (to put my hand close to it). This happens before it bites me. This happens before I have to jerk my hand away or think about jerking my hand away. I'm not afraid of the bird biting me while my hand is out of reach of it's beak. I'm not afraid of the bird biting me while I know the bird is calm. Kili wouldn't go after me intentionally, I only encountered aggression/fear when I approached her or invaded her perceived territory. I gave her a reason to tolerate my hand touching her and gave her a reason to desire that.

You can figure out how the bird is motivated (food, petting, toys, etc) and use that to increase the behavior that you want. I already outlined a concept I call "what is in it for me?" here: http://www.theparrotforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=1528

The best thing that can be done in a situation where the bite is already biting you is to not react to the bite. Don't say anything and don't move. If you can't do this (I couldn't), then it's probably best to use gloves.

[entrancedbymyGCC]

The bird is VERY hand tame.

The bird does not bite ME.

The bird has BEGUN TO bite my husband, where previously he was obedient.

I have read all the back topics, I'm looking specifically for advice on when to push through and when to start over with a trained older bird that has been obedient in the past.

[pchela]

Hmmm... I would think that Bill needs to start over. Scotty is not reacting well to the more aggressive form of handling (not that Bill is aggressive, but more so than you). Does he demand that Scotty step up even if he doesn't want to?

Whatever the reason, the behavior needs to be modified so the two of them can have a good relationship. So, I'd think that Bill needs to give Scotty a reason to want to step up for him. Would he be willing to use the target training method to get Scotty to step up readily for him? It sounds like he's going to have to do a little extra work to negate whatever bad experience Scotty had with men in the past. If he continues to push forward and demand that Scotty step up, I'd worry that he my potentially cause more damage by making Scotty do what he doesn't want to.

[Kathleen]

Maybe that's the problem. I have been writing about methods based on giving birds choices. Parrots and other animals learn by consequences. For example, when I cue Kili to wave, she can choose whether or not she wants to wave. Positive reinforcement training is based on increasing behavior by adding a consequence.

The bird still has a choice. That's clear because instead of doing what your husband is telling it to do, it now chooses to bite. It must have learned that the consequence for biting is that the hand goes "away" and leaves it alone. Unless there's some sort of positive or negative consequence for not stepping up, the bird won't make the choice to do it. If the bird desires to do it based on a consequence, then it may make the choice to do it instead.

[Azure Hanyo]

I agree with Pchela here. Gal doesn't like to step up for Chuck; if she sees him with a peanut, however, she will step up and happily eat the peanut. She then tolerates him for a while before again wanting nothing to do with him, but she is doing well and he is *starting* to do better. He no longer pulls back when she nips (for the most part). We'll get there.

[entrancedbymyGCC]

What is frustrating here is that sometimes Scotty wants to come out for him, and he often, even usually, seems to enjoy time in his company. It seems to be the process of coming out of the cage itself that has gone wrong. I can't tell if he's now learned that "no" is an answer, or if something at some point made him uncomfortable about it. I'd like to try to understand how to figure out if he's exercising choice or if there is something making him dislike the actual step up process.
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We do understand, and use, positive reinforcement.

[pchela]

I wonder if there is some subtle difference at the times when Scotty won't step up? It could be as simple as Bill wearing a tie sometimes and not others. Who knows what goes on in our parrots heads?

This is a tough situation for positive reinforcement too because if Scotty does not want to step up then the behavior is being reinforced if he's left alone. On the other hand, you don't want to force him to step up as this may damage the relationship. I would just try offering his very favorite treat whenever he steps up for Bill. Just make sure he sees the treat before he steps up so he'll come to understand that not stepping up equals no yummy treat.

[Azure Hanyo]

I wonder if there is some subtle difference at the times when Scotty won't step up? It could be as simple as Bill wearing a tie sometimes and not others. Who knows what goes on in our parrots heads?

!!!!!! Galileo HATES if I am wearing a red shirt. She haaates it. Just...randomly throwing that out there. lol

Well, she is fine with it NOW, but she used to freak out. It took her awhile.

[Michael]

Indeed you use positive reinforcement but not the way you expected. It sounds like your husband positively reinforced the parrot for biting him in the cage. Whatever it is that he did increased the likelihood of the biting in cage behavior, therefore it is reinforcement. I'm not certain if he is leaving the bird alone after a bite or what he does at that stage (which would really determine if it is positive or negative reinforcement but this is of no consequence as in fact he is reinforcing the aggression).

You may need to fill us in on more details of exactly what is going on step by step. But with what I have heard, I think a complete do over is necessary. The good news is that it's not too late and if you fix this now, there shouldn't be any long term ramifications.

I would suggest (for now) that since you can successfully remove the parrot from the cage and your husband can't, that you be the one to remove it until this step is completed. You remove the parrot from the cage and put it on a consistent training spot (preferably a training perch). This spot will become a cue that everything to come is good. To condition the spot, for the first few days you can have the parrot do some tricks here. Even if you haven't taught it any behaviors at all, you can find some simple thing to teach like target just for the sake of letting the bird earn treats.

Before the parrot can get too established in the spot, but once it develops a reasonably positive association with it, terminate any further provision of treats, training, or other social interaction between yourself and the bird. You can only act as the mediator by taking it in/out of the cage but you need to let your husband get the credit for all the positive stuff. This isn't necessarily going to happen on the first day, but with time it will. Your husband should get a bit of a head start since the bird will have already been conditioned to the training spot and the trick behavior (like target). He can practice that behavior and use it as an excuse to offer treats. It doesn't matter that the bird is already tame and already knows the trick. The point is that this is an opportunity for the parrot to learn proper behavior with your husband. Simply offering treats to be nice doesn't do it either. There must be a specific positively reinforced behavior because this becomes an alternative to behavior to biting. For a few days he should work on this, keeping sessions only to as long as they are fun and the parrot's attention is maintained.

For the few days of the step above, your husband should not force the bird to do ANYTHING AT ALL. He should not ask it to step up, not touch, not pet. He should only practice positively reinforced hands off behaviors. This is to erase the damage done. This is to help the bird forget about being touched or forced in ways it did not want before. The parrot is to relearn that your husband is not going to force it or do anything unwanted again. Also this teaches that your husband is not scared of biting (bringing biting to extinction) because hey didn't we agree to avoid any chances for biting by not forcing? The idea here is to set the parrot up for success and make biting not work by not even creating situations where biting could work or even happen in the first place.

Only after consistent success with the hands off training for several days straight, should the taming process be initiated. Once again, don't forget that in this process all good things (short of coming out of the cage) should be coming from your husband. Don't worry, the parrot will still like you and you can always earn his trust back easily. At this point, slow/steady training should be done to reintroduce touch in a non-forced positive way. This would be first holding the hand a foot away and rewarding. Then 10 inches, 8, etc. You may have to stand at a distance and coach your husband if he is not adapted at reading the parrot. But as soon as you notice some discomfort from the parrot, that is the time to say stop. He should hold his hand at that distance for a few seconds (progressively increasing the duration) and then take it away (negative reinforcement) and give a reward (positive reinforcement). Eventually he'll be able to touch the parrot this way. You are more familiar so you should be able to coach him which places are most acceptable to touch. If you don't know a specific, I would suggest the beak and neck as good places to start. The good news is that after doing this enough times, the touching can in itself become positively reinforcing since they like beak rubs and head scratches. So eventually additional rewards will not be needed.

Only after this point can he begin step up training. Of course the target training step up is the best way to do it but it could just be request to step up as you do as well. These should be consistently rewarded at first and then dwindle it to a variable ratio. Once this is all comfortable in the training area, the same exercises should be repeated all around and then eventually in the cage. The pace goes much quicker where it might take a week to get the first touches but the only a few sessions or even instances before it can be done on other perches toward the end.

Since the parrot is already tame, these should be quite easy to do. However, even if it is possible to do this in under a week, I still recommend drawing it out for at least one week just to give the parrot time to forget the old habits and develop the new. It may take longer though. Once your husband develops a positive approach to his behavior, I think he will not only be able to develop a safe relationship, but also maintain it in the long run. Once your husband/parrot relationship is improved, you can return yourself to the interaction as well. Just be careful not to be upstaging your husband in the reinforcement side because it seems the parrot prefers you anyway, so leave the bonus treats for your husband to use.

PS I think clipping has a lot to do with the trouble you are having. If the parrot weren't clipped it would just fly away from bill at its first displeasure with him and bill would be unable to continue trying to force it. However, since it is clipped and stuck with the repeated attempts to be forced to do what it does not want to do, it is left with no method besides biting. Clipping breeds aggression.