Debugging 1 person step up and come out problem

[entrancedbymyGCC]

Michael, I think that makes a lot of sense if we really do need to do the complete do-over. On the other hand, I also think there is something to pchela's question... sometimes Scotty is just fine. So I'm not sure if we need the complete do-over or if we can work with what we have. When we got home today, he stepped right up for Bill and was amply rewarded. They had a quite good interaction. It's not all bad, all the time. It ALMOST seems as if it is a game, or a self-expression thing, more than a fear/anger thing. Either that or we have the first parrot with multiple personality disorder.

We recently rearranged the cage somewhat because the perch placement was non-optimal. Bill feels this behavior started after the rearrangement. Is there any reason you all can think of that that might have this kind of effect? Bill was the major rearrangement architect FWIW, but I did help.

They did sort of warn us when we bought him that he could be like this, so I also think Scotty has a history of intimidating people -- for what reasons, I don't have any insight. It is possible that it is self-reinforcing because it amuses him...

I would also not say that Bill FORCES anything. He is a bit more persistent than I am. When he gives scritches, he does it slightly more vigorously, and he will be persistent about asking for the step up, but he doesn't chase the bird all around the cage and grab him either. If it is truly being taken as FORCE by Scotty, he is quite sensitive to it.

While we can debate if clipping leads to aggression or not, I'd rather not do it on this thread. I will say that because he IS clipped, a consistent response to step-up is as much of a safety thing as a consistent flight recall would be for a flighted bird. So it isn't particularly good for him to have the idea that the whole thing is entirely optional.

[Michael]

It is optional and flight recall even more so. You can't make a parrot takeoff from some place and fly to you unless it wants to. If people would take the same approach as training flighted parrots and used it for clipped parrots, they would have a much more successful time. The problem is when people try to cut corners by relying on the helplessness of the parrot as the result of clipping and get bit in return.

Since you're not sure what the exact issue is, I would still suggest going through the whole do over as outlined. It can't hurt. It may likely make their interaction better. If things aren't as bad as I thought they are, then it should just work out quicker.

[entrancedbymyGCC]

I actually found a thread of yours where you said, "If you get the finger within beak raange, you better follow through". Do you disagree with that now?

Since you're not sure what the exact issue is, I would still suggest going through the whole do over as outlined. It can't hurt. It may likely make their interaction better. If things aren't as bad as I thought they are, then it should just work out quicker.

I can't argue with that. If things weren't so up and down and back and forth it would be easier to settle on just buckling down to that. As it is, it's a bit like the girl with the curl. One minute I think there is a BIG PROBLEM the next everything is hunky dory.

[Michael]

I actually found a thread of yours where you said, "If you get the finger within beak raange, you better follow through". Do you disagree with that now?

Absolutely not. I still completely agree with that because if you let a bite scare you away, then you will reinforce biting. You can "test" the bird all you want while your hand is out of biting range. You can bring it closer, stop, closer, stop, etc and see how it reacts. But if the bird is calm all this time and you get yourself within biting range, you'd better not make a quick pull away when the bird makes a move (even if it's not to bite). Biting range is the decision point. Once you've entered it, it is your responsibility to ignore any biting and continue. All the "giving the bird a choice," etc stuff is for before you get to that point. Don't stick your hand up to the bird if you expect it to bite. If you expect it to be ok with it, then proceed but you can't change your mind. If it turns you got bit, well rethink when it's ok to approach for next time. But please, by all means don't reinforce the bite.

[Kathleen]

If you go through target training and train the bird a few other behaviors while managing the bird's food, the bird will be a bit more manageable to you and your husband, but not controlled and not obedient. The bird can still make an infinite amount of choices in response to what you cue or offer to it.

[entrancedbymyGCC]

With Bill, when he does strike or bite, he doesn't give any overt signs on the approach, he just sits and looks watchful. He neither retreats, nor advances. He does not lean away dramatically. He looks... watchful. For me, he generally approaches and asks, literally, to "Step Up". (He also says "step up" to me when I tell him to step down if he isn't ready to go away yet. He is a pretty smart bird).

Once the finger is in range, he bites or strikes, then it becomes a bit of a pissing contest. I'd estimate this happens 1 in 4 or 5 times... not every time, and with no obvious difference to us.

I understand the concept of giving birds choice and reinforcing the "right choice", typically with positive reinforcement (in the biting scenario, negative reinforcement plays a role, especially if the bite is reacted to). I also understand the need to maintain the training. OTOH, the reality of life is that the bird doesn't always have a choice. If it has to go to the vet, it has to come out and go into in the carrier, whether it is in the mood or not. If the hillside is on fire and we need to evacuate... again the bird MUST. If he's on the floor and the cat is approaching, it is of some importance that the cue be obeyed. So while I don't insist the bird come out if he shows no interest at all in doing so, once I ask for a step up, I think it is of some importance to set up a situation where that request is obeyed and reinforced, because it can be of vital importance to have a well-conditioned response. Other issues are more of a grey area. Talon trimming, for example. One can probably afford to make that a choice, always, in a home setting. But a professional groomer is just going to get the job done. For this reason we plan to take the store up on its 1-year free grooming policy with Scotty. We'd prefer not to impose anything odious on him, and we can take our time training him to permit this willingly.

Do the majority of you all agree or disagree that there is a difference between using absolute free choice in a taming/training situation where a new behavior is being introduced and the situation where a behavior is well established. I'm not talking about FORCE here, necessarily. But should we have some expectations and "rules" or should our home-dwelling companion birds be completely at liberty to express whatever behavior they want whenever they want no matter what the consequences may be? I think there is a line in there somewhere, and we probably all draw it in a different place in our lives and homes.

[Azure Hanyo]

I hate being a jerk Michael, but...um...

It's "got bitten" not "got bit". I have seen you use the phrase improperly several times and it is driving me crazy! I don't feel bad correcting this because I saw you correct someone who said "birds of pray" instead of "prey" so...there you are. I will run away now.

*runs away, trips, falls, laughs awhile, and then runs away some more*

[pchela]

Sheesh Azure. You're such a jerk!

[Azure Hanyo]

Sheesh Azure. You're such a jerk!

Oh I am...

[ptuga72]

I hate being a jerk Michael, but...um...

It's "got bitten" not "got bit". I have seen you use the phrase improperly several times and it is driving me crazy! I don't feel bad correcting this because I saw you correct someone who said "birds of pray" instead of "prey" so...there you are. I will run away now.

*runs away, trips, falls, laughs awhile, and then runs away some more*

Well really it should be "have been bitten"....

I love being pedantic