Debugging 1 person step up and come out problem

[Azure Hanyo]

I hate being a jerk Michael, but...um...

It's "got bitten" not "got bit". I have seen you use the phrase improperly several times and it is driving me crazy! I don't feel bad correcting this because I saw you correct someone who said "birds of pray" instead of "prey" so...there you are. I will run away now.

*runs away, trips, falls, laughs awhile, and then runs away some more*

Well really it should be "have been bitten"....

I love being pedantic

In context of what he said you are completely right. Are bitten, have been bitten, get bitten, got bitten. But never bit. Whoo. I didn't put it in context for some reason, oh well. I love those who are pedantic in response to us pedants. BAHAHAHAHA!

[Kathleen]

The only way to completely control the bird's behavior is by limiting to whatever it can do inside of the cage (or inside anything else). And in your case, I guess your birds are also more controlled by the fact that they can't fly, so obviously they can't fly away from you. They can still walk away, act fearfully or aggressively. They may use their last defense, biting.

I can expect that parrots will act a certain way if I've trained them or based on their body language. I could expect that Duke would step up on my finger based on how I shaped his environment and how I trained him when he was alive in the past. I can expect that when I approach Kili's cage, she will act aggressively to defend her cage and her territory from my intrusion because that's how she's acted before.

It's possible to shape their behavior and use the things they want to influence how they will act. Animals learn by consequences. You can increase the likelihood of desired behaviors or even in some cases, decrease the likelihood of undesired behaviors. They still have the liberty to express whatever they want to express no matter what the consequences are because they're animals and they have brains which control their own body. They can react to what you offer/request/cue them to do in an infinite amount of ways.

[entrancedbymyGCC]

Kathleen, that's all very true. However, I think it is missing the point. The only way you can FORCE something to happen is if you actually do it by physical manipulation. They do have, for lack of better words, free will. My point had more to with how one uses the full gamut of training techniques in a real life situation.

If you use only reinforcement, you can only encourage a behavior, you cannot discourage one. If you use only positive reinforcement, you can only reinforce a behavior when the bird chooses to participate with you.

I guess I don't buy the argument that one must ALWAYS and EXCLUSIVELY use positive reinforcement with birds any more than I buy the equally popular argument that one must ALWAYS and EXCLUSIVELY use negative reinforcement with horses.

In this particular case, I'm torn. If Scotty were fearful, unwilling to come out at all, biting everyone all the time, I would agree that a long patient scenario of strictly positive reinforcement training was the right answer. I also agree that we could probably go that route and it would probably do no harm and might get him cheerfully participating as long as Bill has a handful of treats. But where I am not convinced is here where my best reading of the situation is that at times Scotty would prefer to be doing something else and that he has learned using his beak is a good way to not have to change plans. I don't think WE taught him that, there were plenty of clues that he'd learned that already at the store. I think at some level we need to carefully balance making the act of stepping up for Bill desirable while making the act of attacking with the beak, if not undesirable, at least pointless. That would be extinction, and a combination of negative and positive reinforcement (the removal of the repeated request and the provision of a treat and a fun activity.)

I'll admit I'm new to birds, but I'm not new to training animals, and I have my most experience with animals it is IMPOSSIBLE to force to do anything, they are just too big. My husband is very experienced with birds and has been successful in the past -- he is perhaps somewhat old-fashioned in his approach, but that's the worst of it. He certainly cares deeply and, for what it is worth, is very fond of Scotty. This is not about subjugation, it's about solving a problem that IMO isn't a simple one. To anthropomorphize, to me it seems as if he's learned to say "no" and is exercising it with some degree of glee. My gut feeling is that there must be some way to discourage that without going back to square one and without doing any psychological damage. Being firm and insistent is IMO more cruel to Bill than Scotty at this point. I guess I don't believe in this case that biting is truly a solely in-extremis reaction, I think he has already LEARNED that he can chase people away and is using it in that context. So now that I've blathered on about it for quite some time, I think we really have two separable problems. One is to ensure that coming out to spend time with Bill is pleasant and desirable. The second is to extinct the learned behavior of biting as a way to avoid stepping up. I honestly now suspect that the reason he didn't express this learned behavior earlier was out of insecurity in the new environment and because he had yet to identify me as a more desirable flockmate.

By the way, I'm being too pedantic to acknowledge the pedantic grammar discussion!

[GooseBlossom]

I hate being a jerk Michael, but...um...

It's "got bitten" not "got bit". I have seen you use the phrase improperly several times and it is driving me crazy! I don't feel bad correcting this because I saw you correct someone who said "birds of pray" instead of "prey" so...there you are. I will run away now.

*runs away, trips, falls, laughs awhile, and then runs away some more*

This last line describing your "bravery" after addressing Michael is so funny! And the way you write your laugh is funny, too. I imagine it sounding the way a vintage movie villain would laugh.

Sorry...this is totally unrelated to the thread.

[Kathleen]

Then good luck with it. Maybe the bird will eventually give up biting after it has gripped your husband's fingers in its beak and squeezed painfully many, many times and nothing results. Your husband must have strong will power and a high tolerance for pain.

[Michael]

But where I am not convinced is here where my best reading of the situation is that at times Scotty would prefer to be doing something else and that he has learned using his beak is a good way to not have to change plans. I don't think WE taught him that, there were plenty of clues that he'd learned that already at the store. I think at some level we need to carefully balance making the act of stepping up for Bill desirable while making the act of attacking with the beak, if not undesirable, at least pointless. That would be extinction, and a combination of negative and positive reinforcement (the removal of the repeated request and the provision of a treat and a fun activity.)

This is the reason I told you to try the start from scratch technique that I previously outlined. Let's just say it's true that bill did absolutely nothing wrong and this is all based on the parrot having a past history of liking women and hating men. This is all the more reason for bill to reteach the parrot from the start by showing him first of all that he's not going to force the parrot to do anything, second of all teach behavior that the parrot can express to earn what it wants, and finally retrain step up as well as retaming the parrot to step up, touch, etc.

You keep saying the situation isn't completely consistent and don't know the exact cause. This is all the more reason to eliminate ALL factors and then start with blank. It's not that important to figure out what part of your husband's personality or behavior is the cause. It's more practical to just stop, slow things down, and start with a new positively reinforced relationship that can grow into something more. Stop the trend of things getting worse, train the bird proper behavior in its new home, and then work things back in. It really can't hurt to do a little positive reinforcement training on the parrot so I really cannot imagine any reasons not to do it. Really that's what should have been going on in the first place.

I'm developing a new theory about parrot retaming. In short what it says is that just because a parrot is tame with one person, doesn't carry over to the next. The other people will have to earn the parrot's trust and tameness by repeating the things the first person did to tame it (although it may be much easier and quicker than the initial time). The reason for this is because the general concept of a human has betrayed the parrot's trust at some point in its life (vets, groomers, rough handlers, guests, etc) and relatively few people (primary caretaker) are actually good to the bird and provide positive reinforcement. I think regardless of the cause of Scotty's insecurity/aggression, Bill should earn the parrot's trust by changing his approach to handling the parrot to a positive one.

[GooseBlossom]

Will you consider writing a book one day? There is such an abundance of information and experiences on this site that could be consolidated for reference. I realize it is too soon with all the ongoing issues, challenges and communication, but maybe one day. Perhaps an e-book that could incorporate your training videos.

Just a thought. Sorry...still not directly related to the thread.

[Michael]

Well I have a blog. If it makes you any happier, you can print it out on paper, bind it, and I'll even sign it for ya

[GooseBlossom]

Laughing, are you? I will check the blog and go from there. Thanks!

[GooseBlossom]

I don't know what I was thinking. I've visited the blog many times, reading and rereading the entries and watching the videos. I've even shown segments of the videos to people at work so they could see how extensive your knowledge and experience are. it is excellent.

The blog doesn't include the extra enhancements: the insights from the dialog between you and the member or Kathleen and the member. The dialog in these threads cover more of the trial-and-errors and specialized circumstances that other bird owners may have/will experience.

I still may print out the blog and request an autograph. Maybe Kili and Truman will sign too! I will treasure the along with Dr. Pepperberg's Alex's "signature" on one of her books.

Sorry...Again not thread related and taking up space. Sorry. Can't resist participating. Sorry.