To Clip or not to Clip?

[Michael]

Well what does he really like? What can you hold in your hand and he'll come toward you to get?

[tim west]

Cheese and bacon , but I don't think this is very healthy?

[entrancedbymyGCC]

You can train using non-food rewards if your bird prefers head scratches or plain old attention, but it may not be as "compelling" and a clicker becomes somewhat superfluous. I'm sure you COULD train your bird to accept a harness, the question is if the effort is worth it, it could take quite a while. But I'm working on a harness with Scooter even though he is clipped, as I think he could easily be carried off by a breeze.

One of the reason our birds are currently clipped is so they can have more freedom within that constraint. I think of it as limiting range rather than depriving flight, FWIW, and we don't clip so severely that they can't gracefully get to the ground.

This is dominantly a flight-oriented crowd, so weight that in the advice. I think there are good reasons for going either way, and being sensitive to your bird goes a long way towards mitigating the negatives. At any rate, it's a fully reversible procedure. You can do the deed, see how it goes, and decide if that's what you want to maintain or not. Similarly, you can do it any time, there is no need to rush a decision either.

[tim west]

Hi, yeah i think i could get a harness on eventually , depending what frame of mind he is in! Does anyone have a link to clipping wings? Ive only ever done it on chickens and i think its a bit diffferent?

[captwest]

This is dominantly a flight-oriented crowd, so weight that in the advice. I think there are good reasons for going either way, and being sensitive to your bird goes a long way towards mitigating the negatives. At any rate, it's a fully reversible procedure. You can do the deed, see how it goes, and decide if that's what you want to maintain or not. Similarly, you can do it any time, there is no need to rush a decision either.

As usual Ms.Entranced gives good advice, we don't know your situation or routine and can only make comments based on our own experiences.It's very seldom i walk out of the house without an amazon (weather permitting) it would not be possible with fully flighted birds ,the hassle of a harness,etc. After many years of our routine my birds would be crushed if they couldn't go and do all the things i include them in, as being with me is their favorite, when ever i'm getting ready to go all the birds know it and beg to be taken with me.I have often thought of having fully flighted pets but i know they would spend more time inside without being a part of what ever activity we were engaged in. As for how to clip and how much, only clip the primaries and start with the outer most first, clip 3-5 and see how well you bird can fly, don't cut the primaries shorter than the secondarys,If your bird can gain height then clip another one or two, but i wouldn't clip more than about 7. You will still need to restrain your bird in dangerous situtations,traffic,dogs,etc. but this will come with time and your bird come to know and trust you to protect her. In all fairness many of the people on here work all week and may only have time to fly their pets on the weekend, were as someone like myself who lives in a rural area and works outside in the shop,working on boats or in the garden has lots of time during the day to interact with my birds, to clip or not is really a personal choice and depends on your situation, Good Luck, Richard

[shanlung]

Nothing can be more shy than a 32 gram white rumped shama songbird caught from the wild at 3 years old (not by me) and given to my care at 5 years old.

Here is Yingshiong about a month after he joined me. I was told that photo was the first ever a male shama landed on a human, even from those bred in captivity.



When I decided YS is to go back into his flightroom so Ivan the cat can be out, I just signal with my hand
and tell YS ' go back'. You can see this sequence here, where YS flew back to his flight room and into his cage at my
cue.
Yingshiong flies back on cue
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nVMbbxjjJqs



Here is Riamfada, a wild caught CAG given to my care after she escaped from her former owner despite assymmetrically clipped. Clipped on one wing, the most brutal kind of clipping, and yet she managed to fly away. She probably was 5 years old when she came to me.

Here she was, at the Sultanate of Oman flying about



Riamfada & cherry blossoms at Wekan
http://shanlung.livejournal.com/111175.html

Photo below was of her flying around corner of road from my wife towards me when cued



http://shanlung.livejournal.com/116336.html

Riamfada also flew back to her room when I asked her to do so, only if I asked her nicely.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/shanlung/4862326165/

So to think clipping is required to train bird is very mistaken.

Understanding a birdie and their needs and environment and treating them with respect, consideration and dignity as fellow equal sentient might be a much better way of keeping them with you.

Or you imposing yourself and your will on them.
And clipping them. Even so , can you be certain they never ever fly away? When most birds that flown away were clipped in first place?

Do think about it.

They can bring magic into your life, or constant fear that they escape despite the best clipping.

Warmest regards

Shanlung
山 龍

http://www.geocities.com/shanlung9/

[tim west]

Hi Shanlung, what you have with your birds is what i think everyone would want, the reason i asked about clipping is so i have a bit more control on what he does. i would much rather leave him flighted as he does enjoy flying about the house , but he doesnt fly to me that often. Maybe you can give me some tips on what you did to achieve what you have with your birds? If i knew he would fly back to me and not fly off i would definately not clip his wings.

[tim west]

Hi, ive decided not to clip, i have bought the harness and as from today will start trying to get bill used to it. Took himto work today and hes been good as gold, a few flights up and down the office but otherwise just chewing up paper work etc. Just need to get the harnes sorted before the weather warms up as the office has double doors open all day then. But so far so good. To be honest when i took him on i didnt think he would come round to me touching him and getting him to step wiyhout a bite was going to be possible, but we have turned a corner and he seems to become more friendly everyday. Not with anyone else though, there still biting material!!!

[Crimson_Falcon]

if he doesn't like treats, find out what he does like.

seems he doesn't like being touched, but is there a toy he likes to play with? or does he like a certain noise or peace and quiet? a reward does not always have to be a treat, but it's a good start.

try some different treats, or catch the bird in the morning / evening when its most hungry to try the training as this way he may actually want to eat something

[Grey_Moon]

I'm very happy that you have decided to leave him flighted

It makes things more difficult with parrots for sure, but it also makes us treat them with more respect and compassion because they are, flighted, superior/equal to us---we cannot just force them to do anything. As for keeping your son safe, every small child I've ever had my grey (and tiel people forget he's so feisty) around has known from the get go they *DO NOT* handle, touch or approach the birds or their cages unless an adult familiar with the parrots was there. They were also explicitly told that the birds *WILL* bite and that it *WILL* leave a big boo-boo.

Your son's a bit young for this of course, but I would already try to start to teach him to stay away from Bill. You can also reinforce Bill for being calm and well-behaved around your little one. I also think your son is at more of a risk if the amazon is clipped because ideally when threatened or annoyed he'll just fly away--but if he's clipped he's cornered.

The dogs, really, everyone should be supervised when different animals are out together. Its just a safety precaution.

As for work, as others have said, clipping will not keep him safe. The harness will take some work of course---but its possible.

With my birds I did as follows
-week 1 consisted of just hanging the harness outside the cage so they'd get used to it.
-week 2 i had the harness in my hands or my lap while training them (in this time you can start getting him used to having his wings picked up and things slipped over his head---also see if Bill will target/touch the harness with his beak)
-week 3 continued with getting them used to the behaviours I'd need from them to put the harness on as well as getting them used to the harness touching them
-week 4-5 was sllooowly getting them accepting of slipping their heads through the loops and fitting it over their wings

When you first get the harness on, only leave it on for a moment, offer lots of praise and rewards and then gradually build up the time---also pairing wearing the harness with fun trips outside