Hand taming exercise.. I need further information.

[cham87]

So... Fleury. My pet Budgie. I get kind of down and worried that I am not training properly. He is my first bird and I want him to really enjoy life and also be trained. Rules and training are important for people just as it is important for animals. Especially birds, agree?

I have had Fleury for about a month. Maybe one or two days under or over a month. I started off by getting Fleury to accept millet seed from my hand. Which then turned into click conditioning. Which then turned into target training. That is where I am at.

Fleury is always by me for the most part. I pick up his cage and move him to where ever I am at. Just yesterday I found this drying rack in my Mother's laundry room. I just took this picture so you guys can see it.

He is next to me as I write this. Which I like better than him being in his cage hidden in his toys. Even if the cage is next to me I prefer having this laundry drying rack for him to use as a perch and stay next to me.

The point of this thread is to get feed back on the following:
I wanted to start working on something new. I decided to try the taming exercises that Michael posted here Truman Cape Parrot - Early Taming Exercises I just observed what Michael did in the video and started to do it with Fleury. I just read the article 5 seconds ago that is posted in the more information section of this youtube video. I did not really do it how Michael said but I was able to get Fleury to stay on his back for up to 10 minutes in just a matter of 10 or so minutes of attempting to keep Fleury on his back.

I wanted to explain what I did. I first grabbed Fleury around the neck. I have seen Michael do it before and say that you can hold a parrot by its neck and they wont get hurt. So I grabbed Fleury by the neck he hesitated and wanted to bite and try to use his wings to assist in pushing his head out of my grip. He failed. He was not able to get out of the grip. It was hard to keep holding him like that even though he was squaking and biting my finger. I ignored him and repositioned my fingers so they would not get bit. Fleury eventually stopped fighting me and I slowly opened my hand and wallah he was laying there.

What I really want to know is how did this work. I was not sure if I should use the clicker in this taming exercise. I really wanted to. I use the clicker for all training, which consists of step up, perch, and target. BUT I did not really use the clicker. Nor did I really use the millet. I did a couple times but what I found to be easiest was just hold him by his neck and then let him calm down/give up on trying to get out then let him step up on my finger. So I guess what I am asking is that this is a perfect example of negative reinforcement conditioning correct?

I did not want him to actually lay there. It is funny that he does that. I wonder what the best way to let him get up is? Put my fingers near his feet and say step up or just let him roll over and get on his feet by himself?

I was worried that this was going to break the trust bond or make him made at me because I will not lie, he did not look like he was enjoying it at first. How often should I make him go on his back? Do people generally practice all the tricks that they do with there bird multiple times a day? It is not like one trick one day another the other. You can do the whole repertoire each day correct?

[Michael]

What you happened upon is called flooding. It's a method where you force the parrot into something it doesn't want for so long (ignoring all distress) that it gives up fighting. I have used this on a budgie in the past as well and found it effective. However, I cannot recommend it anymore at this time.

First of all, if you fricken dared do this to a big parrot, it would have torn your hand into shreds for doing that! So obviously the technique doesn't work with most parrots bigger than a budgie. Next, it would condition a phobia in most of the more "intelligent" parrots and it would hate your guts to the point that it would take weeks or months (or never) to gain its trust back. It's not the most effective way of learning, it breeds fear, and it also diminishes exploratory behavior. The bird learns to give up and do nothing rather than try new things. Therefore it makes it worse for teaching tricks where you actually want it to do something cause at first you taught it the safest thing is to not do anything at all. Finally, even if the bird is too dumb to hold a grudge over it and you got away with it, it is probably still causing psychological trauma to the parrot in the short term. Thus for all these reasons I must recommend that you do not use or recommend this technique and seek methods that use positive reinforcement and smaller steps at eliminating fear. Obviously there are momentary averse (flooding) moments in the progressive method I use but there is no complete helplessness and the discomfort is increased in stages as the bird becomes less fearful and more accustomed.

[cham87]

Okay well, Mike you are the parrot wizard so I will take your advice. Your blog and articles are the reason I got a bird. I did ignore all distress and bites. Which I can completely see and understand that if I did this to a big parrot that my hand would be destroyed.

I thought the idea was for the bird to learn that it will not be hurt. Then the reward or incentive is to stop struggling that way they get what they want which is to be let go?

...

It is rather hard to learn what is right and what is wrong. I really like how you are full of experience with birds, I wonder how I will be able to achieve similar knowledge.

[Michael]

No, I don't think that he is. Like I said, with budgies it seems that you can get away with things. They don't seem to have a long term memory for holding grudges very well. But just cause tomorrow they won't remember that you were mean to them today doesn't justify the stress they go through while flooding occurs. With a budgie it may be difficult to tell these things from their behavior but when you get to a parrot like Truman, he'll hold a grudge for a whole week just cause I grabbed him a way he didn't like or something. Kili is somewhere in between.

Now I'm not saying a little bit of negative reinforcement isn't ok. Once again if you go through my original article (and I suggest looking at toweling article as well cause it illustrates the same concept but just in a different application... figure substituting your hand for the towel), you'll see that the technique is to do a little of what the parrot doesn't like, click (reward 1 for cooperating), release (reward 2), treat (reward 3). This greatly escalates the learning but without it being too detrimental. The parrot has to accept discomfort a little (put head into harness, let you open wing a little, grab, flip over, towel, whatever) but it knows that if it cooperates it will soon be over and treats will come. This makes it very memorable and makes the parrot accept this technique for any new unpleasant thing you need to teach it. Since it is getting treats for it, it even becomes pleasant over time. Unlike flooding which is only because it takes too much energy to fight and the parrot becomes completely hopeless.

Also yours is clipped and can't get far away which is another reason you're getting away with it. The bird will inevitably be forced through flooding no matter what it does, thus it gives up. With a fully flighted budgie, good luck catching it when it knows that's what you're going to do. But on the other hand if it has to volunteer for just a little discomfort for a guaranteed release and lots of millet after, it will go for it. That truman toweling article is a great example of a flighted parrot that chooses not to participate and my effort to work with him to do it willingly.

BTW clicker is kind of optional in these taming things. It can help but it can also go in the way. So use it at will. It's good for clicking the moment the bird stops resisting or resists less in the early stages of the taming so that it can remember the moment that it was released/rewarded for and doesn't think it was being rewarded for struggling harder.

[cham87]

Thanks for the reply Mike, I edited my post just before you published yours. But thanks for getting back to me so quickly. I will start trying these new methods that are listed in the articles that you told me to look at.

Thanks buddy.

[Michael]

Great. Just don't lose sight of the ultimate goal and that's for our parrots to be our friend and not our slave... to do things because they want to and not because they have to