Please Help... at my wits end

[marie83]

80g is on the heavy end of the scale for a green cheek from what I've read so yes he probably could go up to 80g but that doesn't necessarily mean he isn't overweight for himself. Mine averages 76-78g. I think I read 60 or 65g was the lower weight range for a green cheek. I wouldn't say yours was "thin" based on that info.

[Andromeda]

80g is on the heavy end of the scale for a green cheek from what I've read so yes he probably could go up to 80g but that doesn't necessarily mean he isn't overweight for himself. Mine averages 76-78g. I think I read 60 or 65g was the lower weight range for a green cheek. I wouldn't say yours was "thin" based on that info.

He consistently weighs in at 75 - 76g. The vet said he was "on the thin side" after physically examining his chest and the area around his breastbone. He said the breastbone was protruding slightly more than on average which is why he said he was a bit thin.

Sometimes I wonder if the average weights are based mainly on clipped birds. Mine flies all over the house, all day long, following me around up and down the stairs. I do recall with him, too. I think that even though he is on the "heavy" end of the GCC weight range it might be due to him being more muscular than a clipped bird.

Yours at 76 - 78g is flighted, too?

[friend2parrots]

Would a new cage---one without unpleasant associations---possibly make any difference or is it just that he hates being caged at all?

i think both of these scenarios are possible...

i think GCCs are smart enough to form associations. mine certainly did on a number of occasions. if you are concerned that he may have bad associations with the cage, then using positive reinforcement to break the bad association through progressive desensitization might work to get him to like it. the other faster and easier option to break the bad association is to get him a new cage.

it is possible that he hates being caged at all, now that he has enjoyed a normal life so in contrast to what he used to have. so its possible even when you get him a new cage, the same issue will recur.

one way to get him to accept being caged is the following "lesson":

SET UP: place his cage in a room with a closing door. close the door. have his favorite treats ready. (withhold this favorite treat during the rest of the day. the favorite treat should ONLY be for going into the cage (like what cml does with almonds for his birds) .

Step one: use that new perch to put him in the cage, as you have been doing, and IMMEDIATELY reward him with his favorite treat the exact moment his feet touchdown inside the cage. IMMEDIATELY take him out again.

Step Two : let him fly and romp all over the room for about half an hour (not the whole house, because you dont want to waste time trying to round him up from whereever)

Step Three: repeat step one and step two again and again. set aside a whole saturday or sunday to do this, all day. you should start seeing him getting a little excited at the sight of the cage after several reps of this.

Step Four: only AFTER you notice that he's complying with this ritual WITHOUT resisting or trying to bite or turn around in any way, do the following: increase the duration of time he spends in the cage, to 10 seconds. then 20 sec, 30 sec. don't increase the duration of the time if he resists in any way, but instead practice that time duration more until you see him relax and start to look eager to go in.

hopefully you will start to see results within a day, but it might take longer. the food management of his meals etc might come in handy in that he will look forward to the treat more if he is on the hungry side.

by the way, you can move the cage back to its usual location once youre done with this "lesson".

hope that helps! good luck!

[marie83]

80g is on the heavy end of the scale for a green cheek from what I've read so yes he probably could go up to 80g but that doesn't necessarily mean he isn't overweight for himself. Mine averages 76-78g. I think I read 60 or 65g was the lower weight range for a green cheek. I wouldn't say yours was "thin" based on that info.

He consistently weighs in at 75 - 76g. The vet said he was "on the thin side" after physically examining his chest and the area around his breastbone. He said the breastbone was protruding slightly more than on average which is why he said he was a bit thin.

Sometimes I wonder if the average weights are based mainly on clipped birds. Mine flies all over the house, all day long, following me around up and down the stairs. I do recall with him, too. I think that even though he is on the "heavy" end of the GCC weight range it might be due to him being more muscular than a clipped bird.

Yours at 76 - 78g is flighted, too?

Absolutely flighted but mine does have health issues at the moment. His weight is still consitant but he has lost condition meaning his breastbone and pelvis feels very prominant compared with what is used to be. He was still flying well up until yesterday but now he refuses because his wings are sore.
Weight and condition are two seperate things although they can be inter-related as low body weight can mean there is some muscle wastage if the bird isn't getting the calories to maintain the muscle - basicly burning them for fuel, this usually isnt a problem in captive birds.

To me if the bird is a good weight then theres some other reason for the muscle wastage for example disease or lack of use (the less a bird uses its muscles the less muscle and more fat there is surrounding the breast bone, in a bird that has the nutrients in its diet to allow for this, thus making the bird look like it has a more normal appearence). That said we have to remember birds are not body builders, they have to have leaner muscle tissue to enable them to fly well so it might be a case of your green cheek is a larger bird than average and isn't quite getting the nutrients he needs to keep a good muscle to fat ratio. Again though this is variable because muscle is denser than fat so two birds can weigh the same but one will appear much more streamlined and the breastbone will likely feel more padded in the bird with the extra fat, yet the bird which is thinner in appearence is actually more likely to be healthy if that makes sense? Sorry if that doesn't come across too well, not the best at explaining things.
I'm sure your vet would have been able to feel if the muscle is well defined though but it might be worth talking to him about it if your unsure.

[Andromeda]

Friend2parrots that's a really great idea! Thanks for taking the time to outline all those steps, I will try it with my GCC and see if it changes his attitude about his cage. It's definitely something to try first because I'd hate to get him a new cage (when nothing is wrong with this one) only to find it doesn't make any difference. He is already on food management and there are certain treats I reserve for training only so I will just use them while focusing on positive reinforcement for going into the cage and see how it goes.

Absolutely flighted but mine does have health issues at the moment. His weight is still consitant but he has lost condition meaning his breastbone and pelvis feels very prominant compared with what is used to be. He was still flying well up until yesterday but now he refuses because his wings are sore.

I feel so bad for Ollie, I was reading your updates about him in the Health, Nutrition & Diet thread and I really hope that you can get to the bottom of what has been plaguing him for so long.

That said we have to remember birds are not body builders, they have to have leaner muscle tissue to enable them to fly well so it might be a case of your green cheek is a larger bird than average and isn't quite getting the nutrients he needs to keep a good muscle to fat ratio.

It's possible but I don't know what I could do about his diet if this was the case. He is not on free-feed but his weight hasn't changed in the past year which is when I switched him to twice daily feedings (Harrison's) as opposed to free-feed. Aside from Harrison's pellets he gets an organic red palm oil supplement, a bit of fruit and veggies, and a small amount of nuts that I use only as treats when I am doing trick training or flight recall.

The only thing I could think of to do if his muscle to fat ratio wasn't good (which the vet didn't say was the case but I didn't ask) is switch him to Harrison's High Potency.

I'm sure your vet would have been able to feel if the muscle is well defined though but it might be worth talking to him about it if your unsure.

Yeah, I didn't ask, I mean he said his weight was normal and he was healthy (both based not on the scale but on a physical examination) but that he was "on the thin side" (not underweight).

He actually sees two different avian vets: one for his nail trims because that vet is right down the road and he gets car sick so short trips are better (that's the one who did the exam the other day). He sees a different one that's further away when he gets his yearly blood work and he is due for that appointment at the end of February so I will ask her for a second opinion while I'm there.

[friend2parrots]

He is already on food management and there are certain treats I reserve for training only so I will just use them while focusing on positive reinforcement for going into the cage and see how it goes.

I just wanted to suggest that what might motivate Bubba even more for the into-the-cage lessons is if you stop all other positive reinforcement/treat related training with him until you have a desired level of cage-acceptance from him. that way, he will realize that the only way he can get any of his favorite treats is by doing this one particular action of going into the cage and spending intervals of time in there. stopping other treat-related training with him will also focus him more on the positive aspects of the into-the cage lesson, and prevent him from getting full from other training sessions. that way you can do more reps of the lesson. more reps/day = faster success.

i had to do something like this with Ringo, not to get him into the cage, but to encourage him after his spookout to play with preening toys instead of attack his own feathers (he was overpreening very aggressively). we stopped all other lessons/training. he was more motivated to do what i needed him to do because the only way he could get any treats throughout the day was to perform the required action. eventually he started to preen toys i set up around the house even when i stopped giving treats for it, because he started to enjoy it for its own sake.

in your case, however, even after you achieve a good degree of cage-acceptance from him, i think it would be a good idea to continue giving him a treat each and every time he goes in. just to maintain success in the future.

hope that helps

[Andromeda]

I just wanted to suggest that what might motivate Bubba even more for the into-the-cage lessons is if you stop all other positive reinforcement/treat related training with him until you have a desired level of cage-acceptance from him. that way, he will realize that the only way he can get any of his favorite treats is by doing this one particular action of going into the cage and spending intervals of time in there.

I completely agree and this is what I meant when I said I was going to reserve certain treats for cage training only.

I have been working on "fetch" with him for about a week and a half and I don't want to give up on that one mid-trick so I'm going to wait until after he's learned fetch to do the cage-acceptance.

in your case, however, even after you achieve a good degree of cage-acceptance from him, i think it would be a good idea to continue giving him a treat each and every time he goes in. just to maintain success in the future.

Good idea! Thanks for all the help and once I start the cage training (ASAP as soon as he gets "fetch") I'll let you know how it goes!

[Andromeda]

Just an update: I have been doing some into-the-cage lessons with Bubba (as suggested by friend2parrots) and have made some progress! A few times during the day I use the t-stand to place him inside his cage and as soon as I do I give him a treat. I don't close the door when I am doing these lessons.

In the last few days when it has been time for bed he has actually gone inside his cage on his own! I put him on top of his cage and in he goes. It's not totally perfect, because I have to show him I have a treat for him first, but as soon as he sees I am holding a small walnut chip he happily goes right inside his cage and waits for me to give it to him.

Last night I tried to wait him out and stood there for about five minutes telling him to go inside his cage and he just stared at me. Finally I said, "Look what I have!" and I showed him I was holding a walnut chip and he immediately went inside his cage. I don't have to hold it inside the cage and lure him, he just wants to see it. Ultimately I'd like him to go inside without seeing the treat first but even if it stays the way it is now it's a huge improvement from before so I'll take it.

Thanks to everyone for the help!

[marie83]

Excellent, always glad to hear of any progress being made. You will get there

[friend2parrots]

great job Andromeda!

just wanted to mention that if you want him to go in before you show him the treat, a verbal command might help - for instance saying "go to cage" or "go home" while you are placing him in the cage. then eventually you can hold the T-perch thing a few inches from the destination perch within the cage, and he can hop off, on command. then you just increase the distance between the T-perch and the destination gradually, until you can even ask him to fly there on his own to wait for you to come and give him the treat.

its useful to have this action on command, rather than through "luring" (showing the treat first) because there is always the chance that showing the treat first can fail if the clever bird (and dont we know that 's are clever!!! ) decides that the treat isnt worth the action. when you have it on command, then they are required to do the action, and accept whatever treat follows. which enables you to rotate treats and maintain interest, etc.

all the best and good luck!