Maintaining tameness during illness

[marie83]

Ok I already typed this once but somehow lost my post?

Ok as some of you know Ollie is 3 years old, from a breeder who part parent/part handraised him. He came to us fully weaned at aprox 7 weeks old and very tame. To start with I didn't train him anything beyond step up and very basic handling.

Then at the back end of 2011 Ollie became sick, medicating him for several weeks destroyed the trust we had and I started getting a fearful response from him despite giving him lots of praise, fuss and treats. I wrongly assumed this would get better on its own but it became impossible to do anything with him. I had to start again and treat him like a new bird, this worked fine and within a few days the fearful response was absent and he wanted to be around me again. This time I went further with the training and we ended up with a very trusting relationship.

Since then his health has been up and down but is now worse than ever and I'm getting the fearful response again.Thing is I have no idea what to do about it.

- I need to handle him to examine, medicate and weigh him, this without a doubt is going to cause him some level of discomfort. I have considered leaving him entirely alone apart from at these occassions and then starting from scratch when its all over but he is a bird who is used to alot of attention, at times I notice from his body language and how he is behaving he appears to be craving attention but is too scared so I don't really want to isolate him either, also I do not know how long these medical issues are going to carry on for.

- I have considered starting again from basic taming and training exercises again right now but I dont really know what is uncomfortable for him so what training is appropriate. I know under his wings are sore but I hadn't examined his wings in the time before he started becoming fearful again so perhaps simple things like step ups may cause him pain and make the situation worse? There didn't appear to be any set incident that has triggered this fear response.
I also don't want to manage his food any further but he is less food motivated at the moment than usual.

Its catch 22 at the moment, the more he fears and is stressed, the more I have to force things like medications on him (he will take stuff from spoons and syringes as I kept this up in training but now he wont cuz I cant get him to come near me willingly) and the more I force things the more fearful and stressed he will get. Also we all know what elevated stress levels can do to health.
Its breaking my heart because every time I stand up at the other side of the room he goes to hide or he cowers backwards on his perch, he is currently a good 16 feet away from me but as I said earlier he appears to be craving the attention

This is the first time in years that I really havent got a clue what to do or some sort of plan to make things a bit better. I feel completely lost and helpless but I'm more concerned about how he must be feeling right now, he seems equally confused.

[CaitlinRice413]

[friend2parrots]

:-( so sorry that you are having such a difficult time. Sounds like a really hard thing to go through. The only thing I could really think of is maybe just give Ollie the medicine he needs and leave it up to the vet to check him over. I don't know what his condition is or how necessary it is to weigh him and check around his body, so maybe that wouldn't be best. I guess if I imagine myself in the situation, I would probably just let him be around me out of the cage on a playstand or something, offer him the medicine, and try to sneakily visually inspect his body when he's stretching so I wouldn't have to touch him. Hopfully he would get used to being around people again and wouldn't worry about being poked and prodded. I think of how a little kid gets a splinter and won't show you unless you promise not to touch it. I wish you best of luck and hope you get through it alright.

+1

i agree with caitlin that i think it would be best to avoid touching him if at all possible. and also, if i were in your situation, i would just completely forget about any training for the moment, and not worry about maintaining tameness in any way. i would just allow him to become less tame, and work on rebuilding tameness later when hes better. GCCs have very good memories, and i am sure once he's better, you can start rebuilding the bond again. his confusion between wanting your attention and being fearful seems natural to a bird in his situation - after all, he is attached to you emotionally, but you are also the one who is "scaring" him, in his current frame of mind . so perhaps the best thing for the moment is let him see you visibly nearby, as caitlin mentioned above, but not to handle him unless absoultely necessary.

all the best for Ollie's recovery

[Andromeda]

The only thing I could really think of is maybe just give Ollie the medicine he needs and leave it up to the vet to check him over. I don't know what his condition is or how necessary it is to weigh him and check around his body, so maybe that wouldn't be best. I guess if I imagine myself in the situation, I would probably just let him be around me out of the cage on a playstand or something, offer him the medicine, and try to sneakily visually inspect his body when he's stretching so I wouldn't have to touch him.

i agree with caitlin that i think it would be best to avoid touching him if at all possible. and also, if i were in your situation, i would just completely forget about any training for the moment, and not worry about maintaining tameness in any way. i would just allow him to become less tame, and work on rebuilding tameness later when hes better.

You're in a really tough situation, Marie, but I agree with Caitlin and friend2parrots in that you should avoid touching him if possible and not worry about maintaining tameness for now.

I have had a similar situation to yours (but the illness didn't go on as long). My brown-headed parrot was a rescue, age unknown when we adopted him (but the rescue "guessed he was about one"). He had a severe clip and was terrified of everything and would panic and fall to the floor like a rock constantly for no apparent reason, so he wasn't very tame in the first place, but he would happily step-up onto my hand.

Over the course of the first week after we adopted him we noticed he was sneezing all day long and he had runny nares so we took him to the vet. He screamed bloody murder while he was being handled at the vet---to this day it's a scream he never does except for when he is at the vet so I call it the "vet scream"---and the next day when I reached out to pick him up he did the "vet scream" and fell off his perch and ran away and hid.

Over the course of a few days I tried to get him to step-up for me but I kept getting the same reaction. He was still sick so I didn't want to add undue stress and I also didn't want him to keep falling because he was hitting the ground really hard. I had no choice but to stop approaching him with my hands.

It took six months and I don't even know how many vet visits before he was diagnosed (and another six months of treatment before he was healthy again). He was manhandled, had blood drawn, had injections, and he was even anesthetized so they could perform x-rays. Last but not least he had his nares flushed repeatedly on numerous occasions (part of the treatment for strep pneumoniae which is what he had) which looks extremely unpleasant and uncomfortable. To top it all off both vets that treated him as well as every single vet tech that assisted was a woman---not to mention a woman (me) was the one taking him to the vet every single time and was also sitting in the room allowing these "horrible" thing to happen to him. At first he would run to me for protection and then I would just hand him over to the vet, it was really heartbreaking.

As a result he really hates women, especially their hands. The illness was almost four years ago but he hasn't forgotten how women handled him. Sometimes when I approach him just to talk to him he growls and hisses at me. Even though I work with him on tameness every single day with clicker-training and positive reinforcement and I am the only source of yummy treats I can't touch him and I can only handle him on a hand-held perch. He will take treats from my hand but that's as far as it goes, if I try to pet him or get him to step-up for me he bites to draw blood.

In contrast he loves my husband and will let him scratch his head and will step-up onto his hand. My husband doesn't really carry him around on his hand, though, because he will bite suddenly and unexpectedly and will draw blood.

He can target, turn in a circle, wave, and lift his wings, but in general he is not very tame and he is very, very moody. For the most part he prefers to be left alone to play with his toys and so inside and outside of the cage that is what I do. He likes to whistle and sing along to rock music so I play music for him, too.

Since once upon a time he would happily step-up for me and would even sit on my shoulder there is no doubt in my mind that he could have been a tame and cuddly bird if not for the repeated vet visits spanning almost a year. Some days it makes me sad that he's fearful of hands and is a biter because of all the things he had to endure, but the reality is that I would rather have a healthy bird than a tame bird.

I think Ollie's situation is a little different since he is not a rescue and didn't start out as a fearful bird so there is more hope for him remaining tame in the long-term than there ever was for my rescued brown-head. In the short-term I would absolutely avoid doing anything that stresses Ollie out since stress is so bad for a sick bird. I mean obviously there are some things you have to do such as medicating him but if you can avoid handling him beyond that, I would. If he's fearful of you approaching, don't approach him (unless necessary). You don't have to isolate him, you can still be in the room with him and talk to him softly from across the room. If you can get him to accept treats from you, definitely just give him some treats throughout the day so he has a positive association with you and your hands.

It's really hard, trust me, I know how hard it is, but with a sick bird you have to think of their health before their tameness (and I know from reading your other thread that you are definitely thinking of his health first, there's no doubt about that).

I really wish the best for you and poor little Ollie and I wish I had better suggestions for you but coming from personal experience I think it's best to leave him alone for now if he is fearful or stressed about interaction. Poor guy.

[terri]

I think each day is going to be a different day.Im surprised he hasnt adjusted to you giving him medicine .Knowing its part of his routine.I had to submerge my RB2 in liquid and give her medicine .It wasnt pleasent but she seemed to understand it had to be done.[Harlow also adjusted] At this state [Its been along time]I would worry about his nutrition to keep his strength up.I would let him call the shots on the rest.By talking to him everytime I went by .Offering him attention but leaving if he refuses.While he watches you interact with your other bird .Waiting to see if there is an interest ,no pressure.Im sure you know what his favorite things are.I almost lost my relationship with one of my birds .She was flying around and landed on one of my other birds cages.Who looked as if he was going to get her feet .So I Quickly went to have her step up on me and I spooked her .She screamed and would try to get away . She did this also every time I went in her cage.So I backed off and didnt make her due anything she didnt want and waited for the interest to be there.It worked thank god .It made me appreciate the reltionship I have with my birds.This is also working with my new amazon.I want him to step up on my arm .But to move him he only wants to go on a stick .So instead of working with him everyday to get him on my arm with a peanut.Im doing what he wants.Its been about 2 months and hes starting to come up on me on his own.I suppose hes giving me some trust training.

[marie83]

Thanks for the replies everyone

I have been trying to touch him as little as possible before I posted and just did the essentials.
He has calmed down a bit but he wont step up at all which is fine, but he will run sideways like a crab to me if I put my hand at an angle and press himself as far into my hand as he can get....
... anyway from there he will allow me to pick him up or give him a little head scratch so I think I was over reacting a bit as I'm going into a bit of a depression again with everything thats going on in my life at the moment (not just this).

The routine at the moment is we get up, I'll monitor them all for a few minutes and check the poops. I'll prepare all the animals meals, feed and clean them all bar Ollies. I'll sit outside his cage and talk to him for a minute before opening his cage and putting my hand into the "cuddle position" I'll cuddle with him for a minute before bringing him out. I give him his meds then handfeed him a sunflower seed the second I've put the meds in his mouth, otherwise he shakes his head and gets it everywhere. He then gets 0.1 ml of fruit juice in the syringe so that its not entirely a horrible experience for him then I place him on the scales where he gets handfed another treat or 2.
After that its back to his cage for his meal which he eats whilst I clean the bottom.

After that he tends to spend most of the day sat under his heat lamp fluffed up and quiet, his cage door is open and we have made a little ramp for him so he can get about without having to use his wings as much, just hope he doesn't get too used to being a pedestrian lol. He comes out at will, has a little wander about and parks himself back under his heat lamp when I haven't got to go out. Unfortunately the rest of the time he is shut in at the moment but thats for the best and is less stressful for him than me having to grab to get him in the cage.

[spiral71]

i just wanted to wish you and olie well. It seems like you have a good routine there. i thought reading your erlier posts that olie might of been less tame because he felt it nessary to be aloof to hiode that he was ill as birds do in the wild.

My goes very untame if i am not able to handle her enough for any reason but i just try to mainting a routien that keeps her tafe and health tameness although its great is secoundary to safety and health i agree with the others on that point.

i think you are doing well.