Sweet Cockatoo - Vicious nightmare

[KimberlyAnn]

That's IT. I've held my tongue long enough.

I've been comin' here on & off for a number of years now, but certainly more off than on...and that's solely on account of this forum's self-proclaimed "bird-expert" and his rude, arrogant, obnoxious, holier-than-thou responses to others. Every damn time I do return, I happen to click on a topic in which he's done it again (as in this post)....and it pisses me the hell off once again.

Dude, I can only assume that your mother never taught you proper ma. nners; never taught you the importance of tgoing? g others in the same manner as you would want to be treated. You seem to always spout that "if-you-can't-take-the-heat-get-out-of-the-damn-kitchen" crap as an excuse for your inexcusable behavior....but what you really need is to be knocked down a few pegs. Your head has gotten WAY bigger than your body. Your comments to others are degrading, yet your "followers" stroke your over-sized ego and kiss your ass like your some kind of "avian pope". It's all so damn sickening.

I'm really surprised nobody's beaten the shit outta you yet. I'd pay top dollar to watch that happen.

I never ever ever think it's ok to use or talk about physical violence towards another person. I am, however, very sad the original poster has not been back since their first two postings. I really hope grisgris found the help she needed here and maybe on another board. I was hoping she would check in. To me in my limited knowledge of birds, this seemed to be an issue that would need long term help. I'm so sorry she was scared off. To be bit so badly and then to get bit again when asking for help, is not helpful at all.

Grisgris, if you see this...how are things going? I hope you check back in. I've not forgotten your story and hope things are better?

[Nir]

well i dont really say no much either myself but thats only because i haven't been bit in couple months now. but even if i do get bit i think i will just ignore it since neither of their bites hurts.All in all i dont even think i said "no" much since its really rare i get bit nowadays anyway. I only feel bad for bigger bird owners and their beaks. i would imagine that its harder for them to stay quiet when they are getting bit by a bigger bird like a macaw.

But here is a thought i had. i have seen Michael train kili and at times when kili doesnt do what he is supposed to, he will turn around to show him that he isnt listening to him. Then he will do the trick again and usually kili will listen. with that logic, cant the cue "no" be just that? to show that your bird did something he shouldn't. And you can put him down. That way every time he bites he will remember that he did something wrong and he wont get to hang out with you for some time. Of course this will be best with birds that actually want to hangout with you and be on you since we don't want them to think its a reward putting them down. just a thought.

[Pajarita]

I don't know why Michael thinks that parrots don't understand what 'NO!' means. I mean, they might not understand it the first time, the same way that a baby or a dog might not make the 'connection' the first time but they do learn what it means in time (and it doesn't really take that long). I don't have training sessions with any of my animals (dogs, cats, birds) but they all know a HUGE number of commands and phrases because when you are consistent about giving the same answer in the same tone of voice to the same action, they figure it out on their own. My parrots even understand when I tell them "I'm watching you!" "Be careful" "Be nice"... sheesh, even the wild-caughts that were used as breeders know and obey me when I tell them to get into their cage ("Get in there!") or to move to the back of the platform so I can put a plate or bowl there ("Back off") without getting bit and these are birds that cannot be handled AT ALL! They are VERY intelligent and they learn very quickly when you are persistent, consistent and patient.

[Michael]

I don't know why Michael thinks that parrots don't understand what 'NO!' means.

No. That's not what I think. Parrots understand "no." YOU don't. The meaning of "no" that they understand is different than what you intend. Words have no meaning without definitions. And to parrots those definitions come from behavioral context. If you give your parrot a treat every time you say "no," it would develop the same meaning as the clicker which is "do whatever you were doing when your heard that sound."

Dogs and children are sooner to understand what you mean by "no" because you will hit them or at least do something averse to them in the process. But people don't do that with birds so it doesn't develop the same context. Or if they do do that with birds, then they become entirely scared and bite or fly away so it makes things even worse. And obviously you don't understand children very well because they will often do the wrong things on purpose just to stir up a scene and be told "no." If behavior persists or increases as the result of the consequence, that is called positive-reinforcement.

Since folks who perpetuate this ridiculous concept of saying "no" to parrots for biting continue to have to say it because their parrots continue to bite, IT IS NOT WORKING. On the flipside, I say nothing. I do nothing. And my parrots don't bite. Period. The answer is all in the results.

This whole thing about saying "no" is just to make the owner feel authoritative, in control, and to feel like they are disciplining the animal. People want to "do something" to "stop biting." In this desire to control the situation, they end up setting themselves up for failure and only encourage biting to persist. I don't care about how people feel about it, how it makes them feel for saying it, or what they think the animal feels. I'm looking strictly at results. It's the only way to put aside bias and opinions and find the truth.

[Nir]

michael, wouldnt putting the bird down after saying "no" do the same thing? For a bird that wants to hang out with you, he wouldnt want to be put down.

but can you elaborate a bit on why you sometimes turn your back from kili when training him. isnt that a way of telling him that kili isnt doing what he is supposed to? so wouldnt saying "No" with a firm voice and then putting him down be the same thing?

also out of curiosity, how many birds have you worked with enough to see that saying nothing works (or saying something doesnt work). i would think that your sample size might be too small to already be results oriented. It might just be in their personality that they are more passive laid back birds.

also, reason you might see a lot of birds biting when people say no is because they were biting from the beginning. and when others owners says they never say no, it might just be because they never have to. that their birds just rarely bite.


just to add, i am not supporting either methods. for most part i dont say anything and thats more because i dont remember last time i got bit. but i have in the past said "no" or "soft forest" or something like that but again its very rare.

[Michael]

michael, wouldnt putting the bird down after saying "no" do the same thing? For a bird that wants to hang out with you, he wouldnt want to be put down.

Putting the bird down is a TERRIBLE idea. This is a great way to teach the parrot to bite. In the futile effort to punish the parrot, the owner only ends up making it even worse. If being put down is undesirable to the bird, it will try to avoid being put down. Say the bird was on your shoulder, nipped your ear, and as a result you reach for it and put it down. What have you taught it? Have you taught it not to nip your ear? No. You taught it that when hands approach, that they do bad things to it and that it must avoid hands by biting or clinging to the back of your neck where you can't reach it. Believe me, so many people have screwed up their birds with this kind of dumb advice.

but can you elaborate a bit on why you sometimes turn your back from kili when training him. isnt that a way of telling him that kili isnt doing what he is supposed to? so wouldnt saying "No" with a firm voice and then putting him down be the same thing?

This is ENTIRELY different. I am NOT touching the bird or applying anything that it has to be physically averse to. I am primarily withholding further treats and opportunities to earn them. To a lesser extent I am withholding attention. This is a way of punishing slightly less desirable behavior rather than entirely unwanted behavior. If she dropped the ball on the floor rather than in my hand, I can turn around and ignore her so she doesn't feel ANY reward for dropping the ball (such as me jumping down to pick it up and giving it back to her). There is no way I can screw up by doing this and make the bird do what it takes to get me to stop giving it treats and attention (since those are already established to be reinforcing).

also out of curiosity, how many birds have you worked with enough to see that saying nothing works (or saying something doesnt work). i would think that your sample size might be too small to already be results oriented. It might just be in their personality that they are more passive laid back birds.

I have probably directly handled 50 different individual birds over time. Personally owned and worked with 4. Worked directly with another dozen for more than a few hours at a time. I've also indirectly worked with hundreds through my interaction with people and their resultant feedback to learn what has been effective for them or not. This nearly always correlates with my own success but when it doesn't I take note of it and try to learn what can be altered.

also, reason you might see a lot of birds biting when people say no is because they were biting from the beginning. and when others owners says they never say no, it might just be because they never have to. that their birds just rarely bite.

Thank you for supporting my point. The rarely biting birds that weren't told "no" remained non-biters. While the biting birds that hear "no" continue to bite because saying "no" doesn't solve biting.

It's an interesting topic. I have nearly an entire chapter specific to solving biting problems in my upcoming book (although the entire book helps to prevent them in the first place). There is a lot more to understanding biting and the different reasons it can happen. Some forms of biting require different solutions than others. However, one thing is for sure... positive reinforcement for biting is not going to ensure it continues. Book is in printing, will be available before the end of June.

[Nir]

thanks mike for the clarity.

[KimberlyAnn]

When I say "soft" to Emmi, she knows I will put her down. Just saying "soft" reminds her that she will not be where she wants to be...which is with me. Saying soft means she stops what she's doing. When I say "Leave it" Emmi again stops what she's doing (biting on something that's not ok to bite on) because she knows she will be removed from the area, which she does not want. We are still working on this one, but making progress. Our couch stitching has a magnetic pull to her mouth. LOL And guess what! When I say "spin" she turns around in a circle...Well, 3 out of 10 times. Lol She understands commands.

Saying "Soft" or "No" and a parrot time out, can work. It works for many parrot owners. It works for my vet who has been studying parrots since before I was born. She does keep herself up to date because we talked about a few unrelated things and she told me about studies she's been a part of and some other gatherings she's been to. I can tell she has a passion for her own birds as well as mine. With someone who has such a drive to learn and live for birds for years and years, I'm going to trust what she says. It's worked for me.

I also have to say, I don't understand why you think putting down a parrot means you must grab them to do it? If Emmi is on me, she's on or near my hand anyway. It does not take much for me to bring my hand down to the floor and tip my finger so she slides off. If anything, she steps forward on to the floor. I twist my hand if she tries to step up. I guess we never got to her biting and holding on to my hand so she won't be put down? I have no idea. I have not had to put her down on the floor in some time now. But I would never grab my parrot when emotions are high, that's what "Step up" is for if it's even needed. Or simply getting up and walking away.

The only times I "grab" (if you can call it that) her is so she can be used to being picked up or during play. But she's a Green Cheek. She wants to be held. She wants to be flipped over on her back and play foot war. She will sleep with both feet dangling between my fingers. Lol She's like a ragdoll cat! That's the best way I can describe her.

What's that saying? There is more then one way to skin a cat. Not that you should ever skin a cat...lol (Where do these terms come from?!) But it's very true. One should never see this world in black and white. Years of teaching has taught me that I'm forever a student. I hope that your approach on biting helps some people and my vet's approach helps others. Both methods seem to work for different birds. And every bird is so different.

[Nir]

didnt know grabbing mango was bad? is it? i grab him all the time. sometime just so he understands that its nothing bad and to keep him tame.

thats the thing. i also thought different things work for different parrots. i know of many clipped birds who does not bite and are very friendly and happy. Then i also know of some flighted ones who are out of control and bites. Lots of very knowledgeable people have had different opinions who have much more experience with many different type of birds themselves. I think its good to be open minded. and i will say this, having to raise many troubled birds and rescue birds who bites will give a lot more experience then just making sure a well tame bird stays that way. Thats why i think its good to be open minded and understand all the methods and do what works best for you.

[Pajarita]

I don't know why Michael thinks that parrots don't understand what 'NO!' means.

No. That's not what I think. Parrots understand "no." YOU don't. The meaning of "no" that they understand is different than what you intend. Words have no meaning without definitions. And to parrots those definitions come from behavioral context. If you give your parrot a treat every time you say "no," it would develop the same meaning as the clicker which is "do whatever you were doing when your heard that sound."

Dogs and children are sooner to understand what you mean by "no" because you will hit them or at least do something averse to them in the process. But people don't do that with birds so it doesn't develop the same context. Or if they do do that with birds, then they become entirely scared and bite or fly away so it makes things even worse. And obviously you don't understand children very well because they will often do the wrong things on purpose just to stir up a scene and be told "no." If behavior persists or increases as the result of the consequence, that is called positive-reinforcement.

Since folks who perpetuate this ridiculous concept of saying "no" to parrots for biting continue to have to say it because their parrots continue to bite, IT IS NOT WORKING. On the flipside, I say nothing. I do nothing. And my parrots don't bite. Period. The answer is all in the results.

This whole thing about saying "no" is just to make the owner feel authoritative, in control, and to feel like they are disciplining the animal. People want to "do something" to "stop biting." In this desire to control the situation, they end up setting themselves up for failure and only encourage biting to persist. I don't care about how people feel about it, how it makes them feel for saying it, or what they think the animal feels. I'm looking strictly at results. It's the only way to put aside bias and opinions and find the truth.

With all due respect, Michael, how many children and dogs have you raised successfully? Because I have seven children and ten grandchildren and, right now, only seven dogs but I've had up to seventeen at a time living in my house (I was shelter manager as well as a foster parent for the dog and cat rescue group), not a single one of them crated, and I specialized in special needs ones so I got aggressive as well as older dogs that had medical issues or had simply not learned proper manners and every single one of them turned out OK and learned without getting hit (children included).

I think you don't give parrots enough credit... they are highly intelligent and masters of the body language and tone of voice so you don't need to hit them to make them figure out what 'No!' means. They might not know what it means the first time you say it but the tone of voice you use makes them pay attention and, soon enough and through different situations all eliciting the same response, they learn the meaning of the word. I'll give you an example that has just happened: I have a little scab in the lobe of my right ear, my sennie hen was perching there and she kept on picking at it until she made it bleed (I didn't even realized I had anything there until I touched it to see what she was doing in there and got a bit of blood on my finger) so I told her: 'NO!' She did it again so I told her 'NO, BAD BIRD, DON'T TOUCH!' and she stopped. I did not hit her or even moved her from the spot (which I could have easily done) and I know she wanted to keep on picking at it (she was grooming me so, in her mind, she HAD to remove that which should not be there) but she didn't because I used words she understands: no, bad bird and don't touch.