Coparenting with lovebirds

[wafic]

Can anyone tell me what happens when I co parent with lovebirds

[Wolf]

I am afraid that I don't understand the question. In the interest of clarity would you please restate your question.

[Pajarita]

I don't understand the question either but co-parenting is healthier for the babies, both from a physical and a psychological point of view because they come out as tame as the hand-fed but, because the parents do practically all the work, they grow faster, stronger, healthier and better adjusted than hand-fed. So, in a nutshell, co-parenting gives you several pros and no cons.

[wafic]

dear wolf and pajarita,

I mean that I have a lovebird and I want to get him a mate. I also want to have tame babies but dont have time for handfeeding baby lovebirds. So when I coparent the babies, then will they be as tame as the handfed. I know pajarita said that they will but I remember someone once told me that it doesnt work so well with lovebirds.

[Pajarita]

And that person would be right but it also happens with hand-fed ones. There are some species that revert to been not friendly to humans when they are not handled properly and constantly, lovebirds are one of them, budgies, tiels, plets and I or ARNs are also like that.

[CaitlinRice413]

[CaitlinRice413]

[Pajarita]

I don't understand the question either but co-parenting is healthier for the babies, both from a physical and a psychological point of view because they come out as tame as the hand-fed but, because the parents do practically all the work, they grow faster, stronger, healthier and better adjusted than hand-fed. So, in a nutshell, co-parenting gives you several pros and no cons.

Did you read this somewhere or is it coming from experience?

It comes directly from the experience of a very good breeder I've known for many years who has switched to co-parenting from hand-feeding a few years ago (she does budgies, linnies, lovies, turquoisines and psittaculas). But I've also read it many times...

No actual breeding experience here -well, not with parrots, I only breed canaries although I've had a couple of clutches of budgies, tiels and lovebirds but they were all parent-raised.

[Pajarita]

dear wolf and pajarita,

I mean that I have a lovebird and I want to get him a mate. I also want to have tame babies but dont have time for handfeeding baby lovebirds. So when I coparent the babies, then will they be as tame as the handfed. I know pajarita said that they will but I remember someone once told me that it doesnt work so well with lovebirds.

I can tell you that it doesn't work so well, and that is coming from my personal experience. There is a reason why people take the time to hand feed babies, if it were as simple as "co-parenting" then why would the common practice be to devote weeks of your time around the clock to hand feeding? Its not like people haven't thought of it. But it would seem plausible to someone who didn't know any better, that just handling the babies should help them to be tame.

I've raised babies numerous times this year and have taken notes of the behavior and stages they go through, both hand fed and parent raised. I was motivated to do this when I bought a parrot from a breeder and he had significant behavior issues that developed when he was raised by her. Right now I have in my care a pair of lovebirds that belong to a friend, and I am helping him learn the right way to set them up for breeding. There are special dietary needs and environmental factors to consider, which is another topic entirely.

When the babies are in the nest, they have core instincts that help them survive. If you open the nest box and the mother is not 100% cool with you doing that, she will scream an alarm call and it is very loud and jarring. All the babies will know to make this call instinctively, but if they see her doing it at a person when the box is open then they learn to do the same. Plucking them from the nest to be handled while they are doing this alarm call will instill a fear of hands and people that is VERY difficult to overcome throughout their life. It is easier by far to correct behavior and tame a parrot who develops issues as an adult than it is for those who developed the problems as babies.

That is going to be the most likely reaction from a parent bird who hasn't learned to trust you around her babies. But lets say you have gained that trust. There is a way to do this, but if you have trouble taming a single bird without a mate then it would be a bit advanced to try and start with this. So if she trusts you and you remove babies for handling, there is another hurdle. They have a very strong instinct to run for cover when they are removed from their mother and nest. It is built in their brain to find a place to burrow for safety until their mom can find them. If you hold them in your hands, they will constantly scurry in any direction until they find a burrow. Trying to engage them or bond in any way is futile unless you are feeding them. They trust their food source and nothing else. They will feel very alien in the human hand, and even if you DO hand feed them there is definitely a wrong way to do it that will instill a bad association with hands. It is best to give them very positive associations with hands while they also trust you for feeding. Otherwise they will be trying to get away. Once they are fully feathered, they will fly away from you the moment they can if you've been handling them without feeding. The instant that you must chase them, their trust is shattered and you will have a bird who is more than skittish, but actually terrified and horrified by humans and specifically hands. It will last until it is carefully addressed. This happened to the babies that I let the parents raise the first time, just under a year ago. I was able to help 2 of the 3, and I've kept the 3rd because he is so crazy. Even with other tame birds perched on my shoulder he cannot relax around the sight of my hand. He flutters like a bat all over the place and makes a panic noise that I've never heard from the others.

With the babies I hand fed I took careful notes of their behavior. They go through different stages and can change dramatically every 2-3 days. Understanding the instincts that kick in has helped me to approach a parent raised baby without scaring it or instilling any fear. I have been able to handle parent raised babies after devoting the past year to understanding them, and learning from good breeders, and getting months of hands on experience with babies. But I must tell you that it is not as simple as following labeled directions. You have to be aware of the changes, what is normal, how to approach different scenarios of how they respond, etc. It is much more advanced and easier to screw up BADLY than hand feeding.

In any approach to handling parrots at any age, you can screw it up. Some people manhandle the babies they hand feed thinking that as long as they're fed they will be tame, and they can cause issues. Its not the hand feeding; its the handler.

With co-parenting, if the mother screams when you merely touch the box then forget about it. Let them do their thing and tame the babies as you would any unsocialized parrot once they are fully feathered and independent. But if you don't have time to hand feed, its best to not let them breed at all. With some first-time parrot parents they have trouble and you may need to step in. Just think about why you want to do this. If you just want to have tame birds, try starting with the one you have before thinking about introducing a mate. If taming her seems daunting then honestly you probably aren't ready for babies. I hope that isn't harsh, I am only trying to help you avoid a situation where you're in over your head with too many birds who are terrified of people. I read about it all the time on beginner breeder forums.

Hmmm, then I don't know what made the parent-raised babies that were born in my birdroom so tame that they would pop in and out of my sleeves, get under my hair, ride my shoulders, scoot down the front of my top and come to me when I made a special noise with my mouth (they would perch on my head). These were babies that were never handled by me and neither were the parents as they were part of a flock that lived cage-free in my birdroom. The parents were not people friendly at all but the babies were and I never did anything to make it so, just spend hours in the birdroom and offer them treats daily. I assumed it was the fact that they had seen me from day one and that I never did anything to scare them...

[Pajarita]

Your post left me thinking if, aside from Angie's experience (the SA breeder), other people had a negative experience with co-parenting that I had not read about so I did a bit of a search and I did not come up with a single one (granted, I did not go through pages and pages). This is what I found:

From the president of the Pyrrhura breeders association:
http://www.avianweb.com/coparenting.html

From the owner of Sweet Pea Aviary:
http://www.tailfeathersnetwork.com/comm ... tter-birds

From a hobbyist breeder:
http://www.birdchannel.com/bird-magazin ... hicks.aspx

From True Love Aviary:
http://trueloveaviary.blogspot.com/2008 ... birds.html

This is a posting in another forum made by a friend of mine of many years (she used to breed her tiels but no longer does, she takes in rescues now):
Quote
When my had-tame cockatiels first blessed me with mg: babies, I was afraid to touch them and even more afraid to try handfeeding (all those horror stories when you don't do it right). So Gracie and Chip raised the babies and I played with them from about week 2. The babies were tame enough to touch and hold, but not really pet quality. Later they became more interested in humans, especially if that human was eating.:hehe: Later they became fond of specific humans and bonded and also bonded to a mate cockatiel. I did the next few clutches of eggs the same way. Then one of those terrifying lovebirds somehow got into Gracie's cage and the nest box while she was raising week and a half old babies. Grace defended the babies, of course, but Gracie got bit and one of the babies had it's still soft beak bitten off. This happened pretty late in the evening and I was on my way to work. All I had time to do was stop the bleeding, determine the parents would still cuddle the chick and go to work. In the morning, I found the chick pushed to the corner of the nestbox and with an empty crop despite begging for food. They had abandoned her. I took her to the vet and learned to handfeed because it was either that or euthanize her. The Diva, I am happy to say, is now 9 yers old and very beautiful after feeding her constantly day after day for 18 months. :dancing:I can't honestly say she is tamer for the handfeeding than the co-parented ones, but they are all very special birdies since they are my grand-birdies.
Unquote

This is from another poster who owns a store but I don't know this lady personally so I can't attest to whether this is true or not:

Quote
I have co-parented African Greys, Illigers, Blue & Gold, Blue Throated, Red Fronted Macaws, as well as Umbrella and Goffins Cockatoos as well as Sun Conures.

If the parents aren't tame, you just nudge them out of the next box as you would when checking on eggs/babies. Close the nest box off, remove the babies, weigh them, play with them and then return them to the nest.

I have had no issues and some pairs even seemed grateful for the break.

Not only is it less stressful for the parents and keeps them from laying another clutch immediately. It is also much, much healthier for the babies. Parents provide nutrients and enzymes that we cannot duplicate with HF formula.
Unquote


So, I guess the question here would be what was different about your approach that did not work for you while it did for the others. Maybe it was that you took the babies with the parents present and their reaction scared the chicks while the others either waited until both left the box or nudged them out...