GCC Mutations

[Wolf]

I understand exactly what you are saying and since I was quite involved with the thoroughbred breeding and training for a number of years I have seen the exact same things although the terminology is a bit different. Again it is a process that demands a much larger gene pool if you are going to get away from the heavy inbreeding and even then you must reintroduce other non related members of the species in order to retain a healthy bloodline and to minimize the other mutations and birth defects. Without that it is a process doomed right from the start as you will end up with more seriously impaired birds than ones that are able to live a normal life much less be fit for breeding.
Excuse me if I don't have the right terminology as applied to birds but the overall process as well as the results are the same.

[Pajarita]

Indeed, terminology might differ slightly but inbreeding is inbreeding and there are always consequences.

[marie83]

The more mutated they are the weaker and unhealthier the bird. Whilst they are pretty to look at I don't see the beauty in them any longer- just a vision of what is to come for our poor mutated birds.

While this statement appears to be true in many cases it is not always true. Me, I will accept beauty any where and any time I find it. And even more so if it is shorter lived as that makes it even more fleeting and precious. But that is me.

And yes, there is way too much overbreeding, which is the problem, not the color mutations. The overbreeding take place over generations and the color mutation can be achieved in just one or two generations.

sorry wolf, to clarify my point of view, natural mutation happens over several generations- the quicker the breed cycle the faster it happens but every animal with mutated genes has to be strong and healthy to go on to breed and pass on the mutated gene, thus passing on the strong healthy genes too. Anything that has a mutated gene that isnt beneficial to the species survival dies out because those animals don't survive long enough to pass on enough genes for the mutation to become established.

Any mutation that has become established in parrots in the few generations of captive breeding is the result of inbreeding pure and simple, with natural selection an impossibility, good health care and a lack of predators, birds that shouldnt survive and go on to breed are surviving and are going on to breed thus weakening the gene pool. All this in the name of money because humans want birds to be unique or look a certain way. If you dont believe then look what we have done to dogs in 100 years alone. Tons of research out there if you want to go looking. Ive said loads of times on the forum but to give a brief overview that doesnt even begin to touch on the subject watch pedigree dogs exposed and pedigree dogs exposed 3 years on.

Whilst I cant argue about the fact a lot of these mutations are pretty to look at there is no beauty in destroying a species and causing a lifetime of health complaints..... and destroying them we are.

**edit** sorry links to programme removed as it wasnt working. I'll try find a working link later.

[marie83]

I understand exactly what you are saying and since I was quite involved with the thoroughbred breeding and training for a number of years I have seen the exact same things although the terminology is a bit different. Again it is a process that demands a much larger gene pool if you are going to get away from the heavy inbreeding and even then you must reintroduce other non related members of the species in order to retain a healthy bloodline and to minimize the other mutations and birth defects. Without that it is a process doomed right from the start as you will end up with more seriously impaired birds than ones that are able to live a normal life much less be fit for breeding.
Excuse me if I don't have the right terminology as applied to birds but the overall process as well as the results are the same.

actually I do get where you opinion is coming from, thoroughbreds are usually bred for competing, for that they need to breed the strongest and healthiest animal not the ones that look best. Since they are breeding for those qualities those are the traits passed on which is more likely to ensure a horse that is fit and healthy. However thats still not without genetic disorders arising, theres just less of them.
with birds and other so called companion animals they are bred for looks, for personality and temperament as those features bring in more money. Sod how healthy the animal is. Dont get me wring there are a few breeders who care but they are fighting a losing battle when breeding stock is limited and most likely already inbred.

[marie83]

Link to pedigree dogs exposed

http://m.youtube.com/results?q=pedigree ... posed&sm=1

ill try find a good copy of 3 years on too.

[Wolf]

Actually, Marie, although the thoroughbred is bred for competition they really are not bred to produce either the strongest or the healthiest. They are bred for one of two attributes, speed or stamina, and never for both of these traits. they have the worst hooves of any breed of horse in the world, which is crazy because that is a fundamental part of what makes a horse useful to man and with bad feet it can barely get around on it own. Thousands of dollars are spent on corrective shoeing for this breed and in fact I have had to help remove all of the outer hoof walls of several of these horses so that we could rebuild their hooves just so that they could stand and walk well enough to be bred for half a million dollars and up for each mare they covered.
I really do understand the problems that are inherent with inbreeding and in the thoroughbred business millions of dollars are spent on the hopes of producing even a stakes race grade horse. Which is about one one hundredth of all that are produced, the rest are sold as hunter/ jumpers or sold for slaughter. The reason I got out of the business.

[marie83]

Actually, Marie, although the thoroughbred is bred for competition they really are not bred to produce either the strongest or the healthiest. They are bred for one of two attributes, speed or stamina, and never for both of these traits. they have the worst hooves of any breed of horse in the world, which is crazy because that is a fundamental part of what makes a horse useful to man and with bad feet it can barely get around on it own. Thousands of dollars are spent on corrective shoeing for this breed and in fact I have had to help remove all of the outer hoof walls of several of these horses so that we could rebuild their hooves just so that they could stand and walk well enough to be bred for half a million dollars and up for each mare they covered.
I really do understand the problems that are inherent with inbreeding and in the thoroughbred business millions of dollars are spent on the hopes of producing even a stakes race grade horse. Which is about one one hundredth of all that are produced, the rest are sold as hunter/ jumpers or sold for slaughter. The reason I got out of the business.

As I said, the breeding is not without problems but overall they are much stronger animals than most of the species we have interfered with.

[Pajarita]

Actually, Marie, I think they only look stronger but, genetically, they are weak and terribly defective. You are 100% right that we have screwed up practically all species we have domesticated though...

[Wolf]

Thank you, Pajarita, that was exactly what my point was.

[GMV]

delights pineapple. i did not look for a mutated one, that's just what the store had.
had no idea color mutations did that.