New Member + new Blue Headed Pionus!

[Pajarita]

Proteins from veggies is not enough and although pulses have protein, they don't really have enough fat and they need it so make sure you are giving her enough of everything.

I don't feed pellets. I've been doing research on parrots diets since my first rescue was diagnosed with high uric acid (she was 10 at the time) about 20 years ago and have come to the conclusion that they are NOT the best dietary option for parrots - and that's why I feed gloop, raw produce and seeds/nuts. I feel it's a more natural diet for them and, in the long term, much more beneficial both for the physical and emotional health. But, if you have your heart set on pellets, please use only Tops (they are the only pellet I would use if I had not choice but to feed them).

Please ask the vet to run a bile acid test on her. At her age and unknown quality of diet prior to coming to you, you need to find out how her liver is doing and this is the one and only test that is liver specific and of any real value for bird keepers.

As to when to start training... well, I tell you, I don't really 'train - train' my birds in the sense that I don't have any sessions, target or rewards. My birds are all very well behaved and, actually, quite obedient for parrots and all I do is just teach them by repetition, persistence, consistency and praise when they do something right - and this is something that I am sure you are already doing so it's not as if you are allowing her to go 'ignorant' . But, if you really want to target train her, you will have to start by eliminating her fear of the target stick by leaving it around and carrying and handling it around her. Once you see that she is no longer afraid of it, you can start to target train and the rest will follow on its own.

[flappybird]

So, haven't posted a Luna update in a while..
Friday marks two weeks together and today was her first vet appointment while in my care.

Before I get into that, I'll say that Luna has been doing much much better. She's significantly more comfortable around us, and even tolerates meeting new people as long as she perceives she's in a safe place to check them out from, ie. my shoulder. She let a couple new people pet and even hold her without acting scared or looking like she wanted to fly away. I've been walking her over to the outdoor coffee shop across the street to hear new sounds and become used to new environments. I even rode a bike around my yard with her on my shoulder to see how she'd take it; she seemed to enjoy it. =)

I haven't tried to do any target training, but I've been using safflower seeds as rewards for simple things like stepping up when I really want her to, letting me hold her upside down, behaving while outdoors or around new people. I'm not using a clicker either, just rewarding all good behavior so that she has an incentive to remain calm and happy. Maybe we can resume formal training at a later date, for now this is nice. I'm sure that will have to change when I try to get her to accept a harness. I'm really nervous about that... it's probably why I haven't bought it yet. It seems so much easier to keep her clipped and take her everywhere without worrying, but I think it's absolutely worth a try so that she can be flighted one day.

I'm glad we had some time for her to gain my trust before I had to take her to the vet and risk a traumatic event. She was super nervous the whole time, did NOT enjoy being toweled, and made these really sad squeaky whimpering noises when restrained that were breaking my heart.

I learned that she's okay for the most part, but has elevated yeast levels in her poop, and apparently her feathers are in pretty bad shape. I knew they weren't perfect, but I thought she was super vibrant in color and looked decent. Vet says her blue should be significantly brighter, and that she's missing a lot of her covert feathers. Her chest feathers have a lot of stress bars, too. He says she may have plucked some a while back due to hormonal/nesting behaviors (probably from that box she used to have and chew on) and that they're growing back but she's missing a bunch.

As for the yeast, he gave me a probiotic to add to her food, and basically told me that she should be mostly on a pellet diet (ideally Harrison's). He thinks that all the changes, such as me feeding her a wide variety of foods is making her 'reconfigure her gut' and that to rule out the food as a cause, I should be significantly reducing the amount of fresh foods and feed mostly pellets.

I've read that some vets will recommend this because they benefit from selling pellets, or maybe it's just a general assumption that the average companion bird will have better overall nutrition with pellets in the event that it lives with an incompetent owner. The point is, this didn't sit well with me after everything I've read, and I'm wondering what you guys think. It doesn't seem like a 70-80% pelleted diet is a good idea. I like feeding a variety of fresh foods in the morning and evening and letting her snack on pellets during the day so that she's never without food. I see that Pajarita is not a huge fan of pellets - wondering what everyone else thinks. This is probably already a topic on the nutrition section, and I'm sure it has been debated at length.

[Wolf]

There are not that many foods that have naturally occurring yeast and these are all mostly fruits like grapes and blueberries. Pastas would also be a source of yeast, but by and large a bird that does not have a depressed immune system should have no problem with yeast infections. I would treat for the yeast infection and start adding just a little 100% organic raw apple cider vinegar to the water, this will help to change the ph of your birds bodies so as to reduce the possibilities of this type of opportunistic infection. I would also think that pellets would be the major source of yeast in their diets.
I am not a fan of pellets, they are usually full of sugars, which will help a yeast infection to flourish as well as artificial ingredients such as dyes and preservatives and color enhancers. Most pellets contain artificial vitamins which the birds body find more difficult to utilize and they are very dry causing the birds body to draw moisture from the surrounding tissues to be able to digest them. Since bird normally get a large portion of their daily water supply from their food, this interferes with the normal functioning of their body and leaves them open to dehydration.
Vets are great for lots of things, but most of them have no more knowledge of the nutritional needs of parrots than most people. They only study one chapter on nutrition and it is not very thorough.
Well, that is my opinion on those matters, but you have said a couple of things that trouble me a great deal. You speak of taking Skippy to the local coffee shop and bike riding, which are all well and good, but then you say that you are not using a harness and I can't think of a cage that you can fit on your shoulder for these bike rides. This leads me to believe that you are taking him outside without the benefit of a cage or a harness and if so you are risking your birds life. Even a birds that is clipped and shows no interest can fly if it is startled and fearful enough or gets hit with a sudden gust of wind. More clipped birds are lost and never recovered because people do not exercise simple preventative measures to insure the safety of their bird and it flies away to die from being hit by a car , or dies or hunger or thirst or is eaten by a predator that due to being clipped it can't escape from. So if you are taking your bird outside without taking the precaution of using a harness or a cage please stop doing this or you may very well lose this bird.

[flappybird]

The vets advice was based on his long history with his own companion parrots even before vet school according to him... He says he's got a 47 year old cockatiel (unheard of!) that has been eating mostly pellets his whole life and is fine. Anyways... I'm going to continue feeding a good variety of foods... I just feel better about it. I'll try the apple cider vinegar, thanks. I'm worried she won't get much though because I barely see her drink water.. I'm sure she'll get some though

I knew you'd all freak out about taking her outside unrestrained and what not. I am keeping a close eye on her flight feathers. I've seen her get spooked and fly off to the ground, she still can't get very far at all. I'm super cautious of her current mood and surroundings. If she's acting nervous about something I either stop what I'm doing or take it slower until she calms down. The coffee shop is literally less than 100 meters away and the one street that we cross, I wait well beyond the edge of the street until there are no cars at all for a long time, and then cross.

I realize that taking her outside is a risk in itself but it's no more risk than living life in general anyways, and I feel that the benefits she is getting are more than the possible risks. The coffee shop itself is a very unique place, it's essentially a BIG fenced in yard with bushes and trees and lots of grassy space, picnic tables to sit at, and a covered deck to sit outside as well. There are on average just 2-7 people outside when we go, and I stand around wherever she's comfortable. She actually really likes being around people, as long as no one is scaring her or doing something she doesn't like. These people are all people I know for the most part, as the whole compound (which includes the coffee shop, fenced in area, and art gallery) are owned by friends of mine. It's arguably the safest place I could take her outside my home at the moment in order for her to glean the benefits of socialization. Also, while we're in there, there's absolutely no possibility of her getting out to the street where the cars are.

I do plan on using a harness soon, I'm just trying to introduce new things slowly enough that she doesn't get overwhelmed. When her flight feathers grow in more, rest assured she will not be outside unrestrained.

In summary, I realize it's a risk, but I feel comfortable with it right now. My attitude mostly comes from seeing it in action, the parrot that my dad currently has is apparently very happy and healthy as far as we know, and I think it's mostly due to the fact that she spends the majority of her life out and about (no cage or harness, is clipped though). She goes everywhere and really really enjoys it.

[flappybird]

Oh - and the bike ride in the yard was just a test. I won't be riding with her unrestrained. That is far too dangerous as if she does get spooked and fly off, I do not have enough time to recover her in the event of danger.

[Wolf]

I am not freaking out at all, but as long as I am answering questions on the forum, I have an obligation to advise you of the risks involved in this type of choice. I don't think that you are making a wise choice, but that is my opinion. You have to make your own choices and it is not my job to do more than to advise when I can.
A 47 year old cockatiel? I am really doubtful of this as the normal lifespan is 16 to 25 years with the oldest confirmed cockatiel being 36 years old. There are other reports of some living to be 32 years old.

[Pajarita]

I agree with Wolf 100%, what you are doing is way too risky. The truth of the matter is that nobody can stop a bird from spooking and, in a sudden rush of adrenaline aided by a gust of wind, fly away. Nobody is that fast no matter how vigilant we might be. I also don't agree with taking a bird out or even allowing strangers to touch it when it's still in its honeymoon period. This time is to create a foundation for the relationship and to get the bird used to its new environment without new things been introduced all the time. It's a time of confusion and stress for the bird no matter how bad its previous living conditions or how good the new ones are and you are creating a whole lot of unnecessary stress on a bird whose immune system is already compromised (stress marks, bad plumage, yeast infection). I strongly suggest you take your time and not try to rush things, allow the bird to feel secure in her relationship with you and surroundings and to regain her health before you expose her to things that are, at best, of a questionable benefit to her.

I also don't believe the vet has a 47 year old tiel. If he did, it would be in Guinness and/or everybody in the bird world would know about it. Plus, it's impossible for a 47 year old bird to have eaten pellets all its life because there were no pellets 47 years ago. They were unheard of 30 years ago and nobody really started using them until, possibly, 25 years ago (I've had parrots since 1992 and nobody knew of pellets back then so you do the math).

And, your 'it's no more risk than living life in general' it's a VERY common argument with the usual 'they are stressed out by predators, etc' in the wild' but the problem with this argument is that nature gives prey animals natural mechanisms to deal with this kind of stress (their living in flock and the actual dynamics of it -with birds watching in the outside when they feed or sleeping with only half their brain, their nesting in cavities, etc) but a captive lone parrot has no mechanism to deal with a human city environment. Unnatural stressors are hugely more damaging than any natural one would be. Let me give you an example. If a man who has lived all his life in the city was put in the middle of a rain forest, he would not even be able to sleep at night because of the fear this unknown environment would create in him but a member of a rain forest indigenous tribe would be right at home in it and would be freaked out to the point of paralysis by a normal street traffic in any part of Manhattan. See what I mean? And no, just because they were born and raised in captivity it doesn't mean that a human city is their natural habitat.