Is it acceptable to get an African Grey as first parrot?

[Michael]

It's not so simple. You got bit and you overcame it but that doesn't mean other people can. Actually for most people the most reasonable response to getting bitten by a parrot is to stay away from it. Some people can develop a classically conditioned phobia of the parrot after a traumatic first bite. They may want to get through and work out the problems, and yet they can't help feeling fearful or shaky. This can be counter conditioned over time but it would require a lot of desensitization on the person. Furthermore this fearfulness of parrot could drive more aggression because the parrot does not want to be on someone that isn't steady or predictable.

The reason I say a smaller parrot is easier for a beginner is because the damage/pain of the bite is less significant and it's much more likely that someone can get over it and keep trying. It's more likely to be possible for someone to be strong and ignore bites from a budgie or Senegal than from a Blue and Yellow Macaw. The reason people should not buy larger birds to start is because they have no way of gauging what a parrot bite is like and know what to expect. Despite what you say, the neglected parrots and full rescues would say otherwise. Many people end up giving up completely because they cannot handle the difficulties. What I suggest is that the smaller parrots are less difficult and therefore it is more likely that someone can overcome problems and stay through with it. The confidence and ability to read body language developed from experience with smaller parrots could help avoid/overcome biting with a larger parrot from the start rather than making beginner mistakes with a huge parrot and then having to pay in blood to make up for them.

As you will see from many discussions on this forum, many problems are easy to prevent but very difficult to solve. Biting, screaming, etc are very easy to encourage but very difficult to discourage. Once a parrot is shown that biting or screaming will get it what it wants, even after proper ignoring methods are applied, it still is likely to try those from time to time. If someone is experienced and establishes a no reaction system with a large parrot, they may be able to prevent these otherwise difficult (or impossible) to solve problems. If someone makes the mistake of reacting to biting on a small parrot, they will have to ignore bites to reduce their value and it will hurt but it may be a tolerable amount of sacrifice to overcome the biting issue. On a large parrot, taking 100 bites to show how it won't achieve anything may be impossible. Prevention would be key but without prior experience, even with reading/knowledge, the new owner may likely do things wrong and create bigger issues. Even someone who previously worked with smaller parrots can make mistakes with the bigger one, but at least many beginner mistakes (that can lead to long term problems) can be avoided because of experience.

[Kim S]

I cant help it, but reading this discussion makes me think of how people treat dogs.

Since I have three, rather large ones, I spend quite some time in the nearby park. I see a lot of people with their dogs, and it strikes me time and time again that it's the big dogs that are well behaved and trained. The smaller ones bark, growl, lunge and sometimes actually bite! Somehow people think that you only need to train big dogs. "Big dogs are agressive and need training, the smaller ones just have a 'size' complex. They bark ans snarl because the other dog is bigger and it needs to show him off."

To summ this up. I believe that people who buy the big dogs are more aware of the fact that they are getting a DOG. The people who get the smaller ones think they don't need training, they wont be able to do damage, they're cute.

Coming back to parrots:
I believe the same thing happens to parrot owners. Most people get a budgie or a cockatiel. they are smaller and less expensive. So they just buy them. No pre-research, nothing. You dont need to train them, they are small and cute. And if they bite, they're feisty.
Most people who actually choose to buy a parrot, because they want a parrot usually do the research. Especially one who buys an expensive one like a macaw or a cockatoo.
The problems begin with people who want a parrot just so they can say they own a parrot. They buy the cheapest parrot available, which here in holland is the african grey. I dont need to tell you which bird gets rehomed the most over here.

To sum this up. The problem is not in the character of the parrot, but the character of the owner.

(Mind you, there are well behaved small dogs, and agressive big dogs.)

[Brittanyv326]

I'm with Michael on this one. Just watch this video. A beginner with a Macaw.


An experienced person with this bird would easily see that he is aggravated long before the attack occurs. Given it doesn't take a genius to see that, but a beginner could misinterpret the body language and the growl. I'm going to be straight up and honest here, if that happened to me, I'd be extremely hesitant to ever touch the bird again. Knowing that, I'd never get one of such power that it could control me like that. I find Greys and Macaws absolutely beautiful and intelligent, but I could just not do it and no matter how much research, reading a book is never the same as actually having it happen, having the experience with birds.

There are so many analogies made on here and understandably so, but I have to just say that in this case it sort of doesn't fit. No, you wouldn't start out with a Chihuahua when your dream dog is a Great Dane, but we all have experience with dogs. We've all been around them. Same goes for children. Not to mention, as Michael said, we're exposed to them in media (books, TV, etc.) and in public for our entire lives. Most people have probably never handled a parrot. Seen one, yes. Handled one, no. So in order to really know what you're getting yourself into, it's appropriate to get a smaller bird first. Not to say get a bird you don't want, but get one you know you can handle and ultimately if you are a bird person, you will bond to it regardless of the species and eventually maybe you'd want to add your "dream bird" like an African Grey once you've encountered all of the issues with your smaller version. Now that I have Sade, I realize that she will be all I need, but I am absolutely not disappointed that I didn't go for an African Grey. Her potential is huge as a Senegal, it seems to me she is everything an African Grey is in a smaller, easy to care for package!

To whoever said they were bitten and didn't back down, props to you. You're much braver than I. You have to realize not everyone has that much courage and patience - especially a beginner that doesn't know what to expect or how to react (or not react for that matter).

[Brittanyv326]

Something else I meant to include was what's wrong with the dog/parrot analogies is that dogs have been domesticated for hundreds of years. Many of our parrots are only second/third generations away from the wild. They're not even kind of domesticated. Most dogs will never bite someone. Most parrots will bite someone.

Expectations are much different for the two separate species. And I agree about small dogs, but sometimes it's not the owner's fault, rather it's the temperament of the species. Chihuahuas for example tend to be territorial and protective. Surely it's preventable and fixable by the owner, so in some ways you could say it's the owners fault, but big dogs just have more relaxed temperaments and require less work... It's like getting a Pit Bull and expecting it to be best friends with every dog it meets. You have to know what you're getting into. They've been bred for 200 years to fight and kill other dogs. In some ways, this is the same with parrots, know where they came from, what they've evolved to do, their temperament, their common problems and behaviors and be aware of solutions.

All in all, to sum up my whole argument: Experience > Research

[pchela]

When I worked at the pet store we had a rehome African Grey for sale. There was a young guy who had never owned a parrot before but had done tons of research and had decided he wanted a Grey. He came in every afternoon for about a month and sat in a private room with the Grey at first just sitting outside of the birds cage and talking to her and then opening the cage door and letting her come out if she wanted and eventually getting her to step up for him. I absolutely believe that that guy could handle a Grey as a first bird.

BTW- if you're comparing bites, I've had budgie bites that hurt much worse than the big guys bites... and I've been bitten by Macaws, Cockatoos, Amazons etc. The little guys seem to know the vital spots to go for such as cuticles. (Of course I do know that a bigger beak can cause more damage.)

All parrots are complex and require special attention and care. If you can't handle a Grey you probably can't handle a Senegal either.

[entrancedbymyGCC]

I think it totally depends upon the person. If a person is intimidated by a bigger bird, like a Grey, then they probably shouldn't run out and adopt one. It is possible, with experience, that such a person would become more comfortable with the idea and might eventually want one. But that's not saying that they should have gotten a bird they weren't really "into" just to practice on.

I think the bottom line is that a person should choose a bird as a companion that suits them -- species and individual personality -- to the best of their ability to do so, and preferably with a fair amount of study ahead of time. They should commit to a bird they want, are drawn to, and will care about. They should choose a bird they aren't likely to become afraid of or be intimidated by.

It does seem to have some parallels to matching a person up with a suitable horse, but in that situation size is a given and personality/temperament takes the dominant role.

Please don't tell Scooter that he's "just a starter bird" because he has enough personality to make up for his size, and in my minds eye he's a much bigger creature than his 69grams define. It surprises me when he's in my hand and I'm made aware of how tiny he is, but he runs the household all the same (at least, I think he thinks he should!).

[Michael]

Except dogs are bred for tasks while parrot species are evolved for eco systems. Those traits give them little advantage in the captive environment and it's up to us to manipulate our homes to better suit them. Not so easy to do for folks who are used to living on the ground. People most often buy parrots not for their temperament but rather their plumage and voice... this is setting up for failure from the start. Otherwise I totally agree with you.

[Banksie]

You got bit and you overcame it but that doesn't mean other people can.

There was nothing to overcome; it didn't bother me in the slightest. My experience goes against your assumption that all beginners won't be able to cope with a bite from a larger parrot. If just one beginner was able to cope with an African Grey as a first parrot then you cannot assert that it was unacceptable for them to get one. Pchela has given you an example of a situation where it worked out for a beginner because it was the right person. Some beginners CAN get phobic, some MIGHT be terrified of the bird, certainly, but you can't say that all of them will.

Some people candevelop a classically conditioned phobia of the parrot after a traumatic first bite. They may want to get through and work out the problems, and yet they can't help feeling fearful or shaky. This can be counter conditioned over time but it would require a lot of desensitization on the person. Furthermore this fearfulness of parrot could drive more aggression because the parrot does not want to be on someone that isn't steady or predictable. .

I've bolded all of the conditional phrases you've used. Despite the fact that these things are unrelated to experience (all of them could happen to the most experienced of bird owners), unless you can say with absolute conviction that ALL beginners will be unable to cope with a more demanding bird then, again, you can't say it's unacceptable for them to get one as a first bird.

The reason I say a smaller parrot is easier for a beginner is because the damage/pain of the bite is less significant and it's much more likely that someone can get over it and keep trying. It's more likely to be possible for someone to be strong and ignore bites from a budgie or Senegal than from a Blue and Yellow Macaw.

The above is all completely accurate. A smaller parrot IS easier to keep and it IS more likely that someone will ignore bites from them. It’s harder to keep an African Grey and the number of beginners who would be able to successfully keep one is smaller because of that, but the fact remains that there are novice people who can and do get an African Grey as a first parrot and have great success in doing so. In that light, AGAIN, you can’t say that it’s unacceptable for beginners to get an African Grey as a first bird.

...the neglected parrots and full rescues would say otherwise. Many people end up giving up completely because they cannot handle the difficulties...

These people weren’t the right people to get a parrot. It wasn’t acceptable for them to get an African Grey as a first bird, no, but you can’t say that it’s not acceptable for ALL people to get an African Grey as a first bird.

What I suggest is that the smaller parrots are less difficult and therefore it is more likely that someone can overcome problems and stay through with it. The confidence and ability to read body language developed from experience with smaller parrots could help avoid/overcome biting with a larger parrot from the start rather than making beginner mistakes with a huge parrot and then having to pay in blood to make up for them.

Again, this is accurate. Again, it doesn’t mean that it’s unacceptable for the right person to get an AG as a first bird.

To sum my thoughts up, I agree that experience helps and it's harder to keep an African Grey than a Budgie but you cannot say with all certainty that it's not acceptable to get an African Grey as a first parrot.

[kimbo]

but what is a starter parrot? if you are only planning on one then what. as long as you research, i dont think it matters which parrot you get. a small parrot can misbehave just as much as a larger one, just my opinion and im no expert but i am learning. bigger birds have bigger bites, but if you are prepared then why not a bigger one.

[Michael]

The above is all completely accurate. A smaller parrot IS easier to keep and it IS more likely that someone will ignore bites from them. It’s harder to keep an African Grey and the number of beginners who would be able to successfully keep one is smaller because of that, but the fact remains that there are novice people who can and do get an African Grey as a first parrot and have great success in doing so. In that light, AGAIN, you can’t say that it’s unacceptable for beginners to get an African Grey as a first bird.

You miss my point. I agree that there is a chance that some people could successfully keep an African Grey off the first try. However, we don't know who they are and they don't know who they are either. I listed many potential points of failure and tried to demonstrate that african grey = hard, smaller parrot = more manageable. You agreed with me. My point is that people are less likely to give up and more likely to succeed if they start simpler.

No amount of "research" can replace actual hands on experience. The only way to get genuine hands on experience is to own a parrot or grow up in a household with parrots. Otherwise, seeing one, or holding one at a pet store really doesn't count. Considering how much more demanding and challenging owning an African Grey is, I don't think people should be "trying their hand at parrot ownership" on them. I'm not saying they should go and get a budgie or Senegal just to try out and get rid of. I'm saying that if someone wants to get a parrot for the first time, they should be looking into those. The likelihood of failure is lower and there's a better chance they will get to enjoy their companion and keep it for life because it is not impossibly difficult. After owning a smaller parrot, they will be able to give more light to things they research if some day they decide to get an African Grey. When someone tells them about screaming, aggression, one person birdedness, etc they will be able to evaluate these issues to a much greater extent than someone who has never had a parrot. Many parrot owners who have some of these small parrots end up deciding not to get the big ones (either cause they love their little guy so much they don't want any more or cause they hate the little guy and wouldn't dare go bigger). At least the smaller parrots are more bearable in terms of biting/screaming so it is more likely that people can hold on to them, overcome problems, and let them live their life without being tossed between homes.

Just yesterday a guy breeding pigeons/finches told me he used to have an African Grey but "had to get rid of it." What bullshit, he still has all the other birds! He just couldn't handle it. So while a small percentage of people could handle an African Grey off the first try, the risk of everyone else being bad to them isn't worth it. We can't know who the successful owners will be and they can't know it themselves unless they've had success with easier parrots and are willing to accept the new challenge.