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Went to breeder. In love with senegals!

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Re: Went to breeder. In love with senegals!

Postby Nir » Mon Jul 30, 2012 3:33 pm

Michael wrote:
Nir wrote:I will be talking to ginger in the very near future but from what i know, she deals with the rehomed senegals which does give a more biased opinion doesnt it? or am i wrong there. since the rehomed senegals will have more problems since their owners obviously didnt raise them right.


Yeah, you are wrong. She gets all kinds from the abused to the well handled. Some were given to her cause people were fed up while others cause the person was sick or died. So she truly does get to meet Senegals from all different backgrounds, sexes, and ages. She is more qualified than a breeder to have a realistic impression cause she sees all sorts of Senegals and not just babies. And she definitely gets to see what happens when they aren't brought up right. I know this because I visited her rescue while I was in Phoenix and worked with some of her birds. She's not a training expert, but when it comes to forming a balanced impression based on the greatest number of species specimens, I know no one more qualified than her on the Poicephalus Senegalus species.

Nir wrote:If you could fix what was broken why cant i? i am also very very dedicated and really like of what i saw so far.


No offense, but everyone thinks that up front but it only proves true over the test of time and hardship. Seems to me like at least 1/4 of people who purchase a parrot, get rid of it within 2 years. Possibly more. Literally in the span of the years I've run this forum I have encountered people, like you, who were really enthusiastic, didn't listen to anyone about anything, got a parrot, thought it was fun, ran into problems, didn't listen to anyone and went about it all wrong, and got rid of the bird... all this is chronicled in the archives. My point is that being committed/responsible for the parrot 20 years from now is equally important as being excited right not. For MANY MANY people this dwindles off and they either get another parrot to bring back that spark of excitement or get rid of the one they had that just isn't doing it for them anymore. I know you think you're in this for the long run and are really excited, but I'm strongly urging you to step outside your immediate motivations and really think this through from an outside perspective and the parrot's perspective.

Even if you do raise the bird right and all is well between you, what about if/when you get married, have kids, etc. Loads of people get rid of their birds when their household changes. People don't think ahead very well. There are foreseen things but even lots of unforeseen things. It's important to have these thought through and what you'd do. What would you do if you got in a relationship with a person that was allergic to the bird? Hated the bird? Got attacked by the bird? While a parrot might seem right to you in your current circumstance, is it really right for you in the long term?

It is all too easy to see a cute cuddly baby Senegal, Cockatoo, puppy, you name it and get fooled into ownership. However, long term ownership is NOTHING like that cute cuddly baby image you got into your head. It's false advertising. It's deceptive. The baby just sits in the nest, eats, poops, and that's it. So you come over, grab it, hold it, pet it, cuddle it, no problem. It doesn't resist. It doesn't necessarily want it but nor does it bite or act like it doesn't. It's just a baby and unresponsive. This can be mistake for being sweet and I totally know the feeling cause I love visiting baby Senegal Parrots in stores and playing with them. Every time this happens I'm reminded by how I feel for Kili when I got her. However, long term ownership turned out nothing like that baby Senegal that I got. (Well luckily with a TON of work I've gotten a lot of it back and made it work out but that's a whole other story and really outside the scope of just average ownership).

Senegal Parrots don't have to be hormonal to be vicious. They are that way without being hormonal. When they hit a certain age, they become aggressive toward anything that hasn't proved itself worthy otherwise. If you're lucky, it's everyone but you. If you're unlucky, then it will even turn on you and you'll be attacked as much as anyone. Senegal Parrots aren't just defensive, they are actually aggressive. They are the kind of bird that will make an intentional effort to go attack another bird (or person, to them it's all just competition). I have encountered countless stories of Senegal Parrots attacking (and maiming or killing) other birds. One, actually snuck out of its cage and climbed onto another birds cage and killed it through the bars while the owner was gone. It is in their nature to intentionally and maliciously attack others.

Through training, taming, and socialization a lot of this can be curbed (although when they are hormonal, it will happen anyway). However, when it comes to things outside your direct control (like other people, birds, etc) it is very risky. You may be able to stand up to the biting and teach it not to bite you. Not the case for budgie, roommates, etc. Your roommates could potentially undo any/all effort you put into training the bird NOT to bite other people. This can be a huge problem in the long run if you get a girlfriend, wife, kids, etc.

Although my impression is that Grey Parrots tend to be more defensive and will fear bite, I think they are less prone to intentional aggression like Senegals. I'm not saying this is a reason to get one or even consider it, but I think it helps compare the kind of biting Senegals can get involved with.

If I'm dwelling on the aggression too much, it's because it is the biggest problem with Senegals and not spoken enough about. People don't see it in the baby and are in no way prepared for what's to come. Worse yet, when the sweet baby becomes aggressive, they deal with it the wrong way and really set it up for further failure. The bird becomes aggressive, so people get scared (or think it just doesn't want to come out). So they leave it in the cage which just makes it more territorial and aggressive. And before you know it either they get rid of it, or just leave it condemned to the cage 24/7 for life without parole.

The biggest trouble I had wasn't my Senegal Parrot biting me, but biting others. That's REALLY hard because no matter how much self discipline I had to do things right on my end, I couldn't control how others might be encouraging the bird to bite (whether they knew it or not). Senegals generally aren't rehomed/neglected over screaming or plucking (although it does happen from time to time so don't completely write it off as a possibility) but over the aggression. You said that biting is an issue for you and I'm telling you that with Senegals aggression is one of the cons/side effects. Also they are in the range of mediocre talkers to not talking at all. Worse yet they just pick up annoying noises. So they don't talk but they mimic shrieks, whistles, and annoying wild bird calls. You will find the exceptional talking Senegal, but it's the exception not the rule. Mostly their vocalizations are annoying and not fun so it's not a plus side to look forward to.

For me the best parts are the intelligence, convenient size, playfulness, loyalty, relative quietness, relative cleanliness, relative mellowness (not as hyper as others), quick learner, good at tricks, can fly in confined conditions, somewhat cuddly. Senegals mostly win as a "personality" parrot. They don't have the looks, talks, or skills of other parrots but they win on having a likeable personality. However, that personality can become inaccessible through aggression. So this is why it's such a big deal. Let's say a certain parrot is a non-aggressive screamer. Although it's annoying as hell, it doesn't prevent the owner from being able to hold and interact with the bird. Aggression on the other hand may entirely prevent all interaction and no progress can be made. Thus it is a very significant ownership issue.

I would caution you about the information you get from various sources. While I think it's perfectly fine for everyone to participate in discussions and have an opinion, you'll find that it's not always a valid one. Some suggestions are given by people who don't even own the experience in question, a parrot at all, or that kind but only very briefly, etc. Others are biased by profit. I still think it's better that they all be available and for the reader to hear all and choose. However, in the excitement of getting a new parrot it's easy to accept the ones that are positive/in agreement with what you want and ignore the others. I'm up front that my experience is 4 years with one Senegal Parrot, visiting at least another 6 Senegal Parrots, 2 Meyers, 3 Jardines, 1 Red Bellied Parrot in a store, 3 adult Senegal Parrots in other places, 6 adult Senegal Parrots at a rescue, and all the conversations I have had with other Senegal owners (both success and failure) who gravitate toward discussing it with me based on my successful ownership of one. When I give you my feedback, that is the perspective it is coming from and not just owning a single bird or hearing about it.

Talk to Ginger first, then I can fill you in on more training related details. Please consider a rescue rather than a baby. Other than the first 6-9 months of enjoyable hassle-free baby, you don't necessarily gain any advantage by having a baby over an adult. There are actually many potential benefits to getting an adult rescue parrot instead. One is that you know what you're getting whereas with a baby you won't find out until it grows up.



i first want to thank you for taking the time and replying with details. i really do appreciate it.

i am very excited to talk to her. I will talk to her soon.

"For me the best parts are the intelligence, convenient size, playfulness, loyalty, relative quietness, relative cleanliness, relative mellowness (not as hyper as others), quick learner, good at tricks, can fly in confined conditions, somewhat cuddly"

That is exactly the reason i liked a senegal to begin with. Not because of its talking or biting. I liked senegal because of those. if i wanted a talking bird i would just pick one thats more inclined to talk like a african grey or eclectus , amazons or others. Not a senegal. And biting isnt an issue for me as long as its maintained. If your saying that chances are more likely for him to be vicious and agressive then being sweet more often then yes that is not what i want. But if its something that i can teach him not to do then all those other positives are worth the hard work. your absolutely right that agression is a big issue and it is the major issue that i am still researching on figuring out how dire this is compared to OTHER birds.But again like i said that the positives are just so strong and thats why i am willing to work very hard on correcting its cons.

like i said i do appreciate our discussion. And honestly, i am no where near ready yet to buy one because of mainly the agression issues your talking about. If it wasnt for that, i would definitely get it right away. I believe i can handle it for the long run but who knows... the way your describing a senegal seems like from a horror movie. But the naive me still wants one because i truly believe i can do it. Since i dont consider myself the avg person by any means in anything i do.

but lets see what happens.. I still got plenty of time to decide. Perhaps senegals arent right for me. perhaps they are, but i sure am not going to buy one unless i am 100% certain i can handle it for the next 30+ years if needed. So i am in no rush.
Nir
Poicephalus
 
Gender: This parrot forum member is male
Posts: 317
Number of Birds Owned: 4
Types of Birds Owned: Budgies
Flight: Yes

Re: Went to breeder. In love with senegals!

Postby Nir » Mon Jul 30, 2012 3:42 pm

Mona wrote:Every individual bird is different. I have both a TAG and three Senegals. My TAG is amazing...love her, love her, love her.

The Senegals don't bite every day. Actually, they don't bite that often. My youngest is my hen who is 10....Bailey is probably 16 and Jack is in between....It's easier if you start socializing them as babies and they don't startle so easy. They have a heightened "fight or flight" reflex so if you can socialize them and lessen that fear impulse, you can honestly have a pretty nice bird. They are stubborn and opinionated but they aren't vicious by any means. They are also smart, smart, smart.....They can be more aggressive than the TAG's but the smaller size does make them easier in a lot of ways. You can check out my website http://www.flyingparrotsinside.com

Lots of Senegal and TAG commentary....I love them all though...Wouldn't trade them for anything.

Mona



see when i read stuff like this i get a better nicer picture of what i expect from a senegal (+ more bites and social issues probably which i will try to fix with positive reinforcement). thanks for the site. i will check it out.
Nir
Poicephalus
 
Gender: This parrot forum member is male
Posts: 317
Number of Birds Owned: 4
Types of Birds Owned: Budgies
Flight: Yes

Re: Went to breeder. In love with senegals!

Postby Michael » Mon Jul 30, 2012 4:06 pm

Nir wrote:the way your describing a senegal seems like from a horror movie.


It can be! Believe me. My Senegal Parrot has tried to attack my budgie when I had it (but she was still a poor flier and I was around to break it up). She has attacked and injured my Cape Parrot who is a LOT bigger. I'm talking about bloody cuts and gashes. Enough to take an entire toe off a budgie with ease. Worse yet, she flew up to my girlfriend, landed on her shoulder and just about gave her a new ear piercing. She bit a guy on the nose who stuck his nose in her face (different kind of issue but it happened). She has bit me to blood a few times. Mostly out of jealousy (Truman and other people) and occasion out of displaced aggression (she thinks someone else is approaching or is just scared and bites). She has bitten me a few times so deep that it hurt for like a week. Not that it was a big cut or anything but the depth of it made it painful for a long time.

My brother has taken some really nasty bites from Kili as well while birdsitting for me. She knows exactly how to make him whimper. She gets the skin under the fingernails or between the fingers. Almost everyone I know is terrified of her but completely at ease with Truman. And I have worked A TON socializing/training her. So this is about the best you can achieve. Before I realized it was a problem and began fixing it, I saw how much worse it could be. And I hadn't let it go too far when I began working on it. I don't even want to imagine what it would have been like if I left it as is or coward out.

The biting is in large (but not complete) part a result of clipping. Parrots should not be clipped. People don't realize but many of the problems they have are side effects of clipping. They do not realize this because they've only experienced clipped parrots and they think it's a problem with parrots and don't realize it's a clipping problem. I've seen how Kili was while clipped (only once at store when she was baby before I got her) and then how it was solved by not clipping any more. By eliminating their chance to fly away from fear, they will bite from fear. This still doesn't mean you can't have intentional aggression. That's one of the hardest parts about having a hormonal flighted Senegal Parrot that actually wants to go and attack people intentionally. However, aside from this issue, the flighted Senegal Parrot is far less fearful and far less prone to fear related behavior such as biting. So aside from ALL the reasons for clipped vs flight, biting is greatly reduced and temperament improved with flight. However, flight poses its own risks and challenges (which to me are just part of owning a bird).

Even if you do get a bird and it is clipped, you SHOULD NOT be getting a parrot at all if your situation is not conducive to flight. People do not realize it but a household/lifestyle that is dangerous for a flighted parrot really is dangerous/unacceptable for a clipped parrot as well. Also I hate for people to bring a parrot into an environment that will never allow them to be flighted (knowingly from the start). Here is more information about flight and why it is important for parrots:

http://TrainedParrot.com/Clipping

And read Mona's site start to finish. Especially pay attention to the problems she describes with the Senegals and how she never really dealt with them. She learned to live with them but she never truly solved them. You should be committed to doing your best to solve problems but prepared to accept them if they genuinely are unsolvable.
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Michael
Macaw
 
Gender: This parrot forum member is male
Posts: 6217
Location: New York
Number of Birds Owned: 3
Types of Birds Owned: Senegal Parrot, Cape Parrot, Green-Winged Macaw
Flight: Yes

Re: Went to breeder. In love with senegals!

Postby terri » Mon Jul 30, 2012 5:08 pm

I think in life when someones REALLY trying to tell you something you should listen .Ive learned the hard way [and they were usually right].Im older than you guys.Ive never had a senegal so I cant give a opinion.Michael sees something in this and is basically screaming it to you.I would say he has a very good take on his bird and the species. One thing that hit home with me [something to think about] I dont think your married or have kids.Your life will change big time for the bird[If senegals tend to bond to one person ] theres going to be problems.There are species that do that[I have a lesser sulpher crested cockatoo [they do this ]and theres been lots of people on this forum who had problems with them also .What are you going to do if it hates your wife and kids ?Maybe try a different species :D
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terri
Poicephalus
 
Gender: This parrot forum member is female
Posts: 410
Number of Birds Owned: 12
Types of Birds Owned: catalina macaw,RB2,LS2,Hawkhead,Congo grey,2Blk Hd caiques,yellowstreaked lorry,yellowsided greencheek,Blue fnt amazon ,goffin2
Flight: Yes

Re: Went to breeder. In love with senegals!

Postby Nir » Mon Jul 30, 2012 5:47 pm

Michael wrote:
Nir wrote:the way your describing a senegal seems like from a horror movie.


It can be! Believe me. My Senegal Parrot has tried to attack my budgie when I had it (but she was still a poor flier and I was around to break it up). She has attacked and injured my Cape Parrot who is a LOT bigger. I'm talking about bloody cuts and gashes. Enough to take an entire toe off a budgie with ease. Worse yet, she flew up to my girlfriend, landed on her shoulder and just about gave her a new ear piercing. She bit a guy on the nose who stuck his nose in her face (different kind of issue but it happened). She has bit me to blood a few times. Mostly out of jealousy (Truman and other people) and occasion out of displaced aggression (she thinks someone else is approaching or is just scared and bites). She has bitten me a few times so deep that it hurt for like a week. Not that it was a big cut or anything but the depth of it made it painful for a long time.

My brother has taken some really nasty bites from Kili as well while birdsitting for me. She knows exactly how to make him whimper. She gets the skin under the fingernails or between the fingers. Almost everyone I know is terrified of her but completely at ease with Truman. And I have worked A TON socializing/training her. So this is about the best you can achieve. Before I realized it was a problem and began fixing it, I saw how much worse it could be. And I hadn't let it go too far when I began working on it. I don't even want to imagine what it would have been like if I left it as is or coward out.

The biting is in large (but not complete) part a result of clipping. Parrots should not be clipped. People don't realize but many of the problems they have are side effects of clipping. They do not realize this because they've only experienced clipped parrots and they think it's a problem with parrots and don't realize it's a clipping problem. I've seen how Kili was while clipped (only once at store when she was baby before I got her) and then how it was solved by not clipping any more. By eliminating their chance to fly away from fear, they will bite from fear. This still doesn't mean you can't have intentional aggression. That's one of the hardest parts about having a hormonal flighted Senegal Parrot that actually wants to go and attack people intentionally. However, aside from this issue, the flighted Senegal Parrot is far less fearful and far less prone to fear related behavior such as biting. So aside from ALL the reasons for clipped vs flight, biting is greatly reduced and temperament improved with flight. However, flight poses its own risks and challenges (which to me are just part of owning a bird).

Even if you do get a bird and it is clipped, you SHOULD NOT be getting a parrot at all if your situation is not conducive to flight. People do not realize it but a household/lifestyle that is dangerous for a flighted parrot really is dangerous/unacceptable for a clipped parrot as well. Also I hate for people to bring a parrot into an environment that will never allow them to be flighted (knowingly from the start). Here is more information about flight and why it is important for parrots:

http://TrainedParrot.com/Clipping

And read Mona's site start to finish. Especially pay attention to the problems she describes with the Senegals and how she never really dealt with them. She learned to live with them but she never truly solved them. You should be committed to doing your best to solve problems but prepared to accept them if they genuinely are unsolvable.


I guess I will get a different parrot.
Nir
Poicephalus
 
Gender: This parrot forum member is male
Posts: 317
Number of Birds Owned: 4
Types of Birds Owned: Budgies
Flight: Yes

Re: Went to breeder. In love with senegals!

Postby Michael » Mon Jul 30, 2012 6:16 pm

Nir wrote:I guess I will get a different parrot.


You're still not getting this. You really need to slow down and chill. It's not a decision to make overnight. You keep saying you're going to take months to decide, yet you're getting way ahead of yourself in excitement jumping around on any idea you catch. I'm not saying don't get one. But I'm definitely not saying go get one right this minute either. I'm laying out the issues and things to contemplate.

Unless of course something I mentioned turned out to be a definite deal breaker for you, then definitely safer to back out than to try to convince yourself otherwise.

No parrot is going to be perfect and they will all have their difficulties. In fact these are probably a bigger deal than their positive traits. From budgie to macaw, there's fairly little getting rid of these birds because they do not meet people's expectations (like don't talk, not cute, not cuddly, not smart, etc). Not that it doesn't happen or that people are getting rid of a bird to upgrade to a bigger one, but for the most part, birds get rehomed because people are fed up with their downsides. This is why they must be considered with far more deliberation than the positives. You'll find those regardless. However, the problems are far less discussed. People don't want to admit to mistakes or flaws as easily.

Why don't you think through the typical list of downsides for parrots and think about which ones you can live with and which ones are impossible. Furthermore, consider this in relation to the full 30 years you'd expect with thew bird and not just in the meantime.

-Biting
-Aggression
-Jealousy
-Messy
-Noisy
-Loud
-Alergenic
-Hyper
-Flighty
-Bold
-Uncooperative
-Destructive
-Needy
-High maintenance
-Costly (long term)
-Requires a lot of space

There are probably plenty more that I didn't think of off the top of my head but that's a start. Perhaps others can give you more to think about. Start listing which of those you foresee yourself as being able to tolerate and which ones would make it impossible to keep the bird.

And I don't know how many times I gotta say it, but talk to Ginger. She is constantly talking to people who adopt birds (especially Senegals) so she has a pretty good idea of who is suitable for one and who is not. If she gets the impression that you're not, that is very substantial cause she knows. If on the other hand she thinks you'd be suitable for a Senegal, that may give you more confidence toward making YOUR OWN decision. We're not gonna decide for you, but hopefully you'll keep discussing it and thinking about it so that it's a very well informed decision with much foresight.
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Michael
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Gender: This parrot forum member is male
Posts: 6217
Location: New York
Number of Birds Owned: 3
Types of Birds Owned: Senegal Parrot, Cape Parrot, Green-Winged Macaw
Flight: Yes

Re: Went to breeder. In love with senegals!

Postby Nir » Mon Jul 30, 2012 7:02 pm

Michael wrote:
Nir wrote:I guess I will get a different parrot.


You're still not getting this. You really need to slow down and chill. It's not a decision to make overnight. You keep saying you're going to take months to decide, yet you're getting way ahead of yourself in excitement jumping around on any idea you catch. I'm not saying don't get one. But I'm definitely not saying go get one right this minute either. I'm laying out the issues and things to contemplate.

Unless of course something I mentioned turned out to be a definite deal breaker for you, then definitely safer to back out than to try to convince yourself otherwise.

No parrot is going to be perfect and they will all have their difficulties. In fact these are probably a bigger deal than their positive traits. From budgie to macaw, there's fairly little getting rid of these birds because they do not meet people's expectations (like don't talk, not cute, not cuddly, not smart, etc). Not that it doesn't happen or that people are getting rid of a bird to upgrade to a bigger one, but for the most part, birds get rehomed because people are fed up with their downsides. This is why they must be considered with far more deliberation than the positives. You'll find those regardless. However, the problems are far less discussed. People don't want to admit to mistakes or flaws as easily.

Why don't you think through the typical list of downsides for parrots and think about which ones you can live with and which ones are impossible. Furthermore, consider this in relation to the full 30 years you'd expect with thew bird and not just in the meantime.

-Biting
-Aggression
-Jealousy
-Messy
-Noisy
-Loud
-Alergenic
-Hyper
-Flighty
-Bold
-Uncooperative
-Destructive
-Needy
-High maintenance
-Costly (long term)
-Requires a lot of space

There are probably plenty more that I didn't think of off the top of my head but that's a start. Perhaps others can give you more to think about. Start listing which of those you foresee yourself as being able to tolerate and which ones would make it impossible to keep the bird.

And I don't know how many times I gotta say it, but talk to Ginger. She is constantly talking to people who adopt birds (especially Senegals) so she has a pretty good idea of who is suitable for one and who is not. If she gets the impression that you're not, that is very substantial cause she knows. If on the other hand she thinks you'd be suitable for a Senegal, that may give you more confidence toward making YOUR OWN decision. We're not gonna decide for you, but hopefully you'll keep discussing it and thinking about it so that it's a very well informed decision with much foresight.


currently discussing calling time with ginger so i will definitely give her a call as soon as she responds.

I mean only reason i am thinking otherwise now is because you are very reputable and the way your describing this, it seems like senegal is a bird thats much harder to raise and live with compared to other birds.

I am only very excited because thats just how i am. I am finishing up my last class in college and while that i got very addicted to poker and i lived and dreamed poker and because of that hard work, i became a poker pro high stakes cash player and was making more then i would when i graduate in my college years. Then usa laws made it very hard to gamble so i had a backup plan i was working on which was trading options. So i started reading 1 2-300 book every 2-3 days and finished many books and started trading with what i saved from gambling. and same as poker, that is pretty much all i did. i dreamt it i lived it 24 hours reading company financial statements, 10ks and everything. And now thats what i do independently. So its hard for me not to get excited about something. When i want to do something i give it my 100%. But they way your describing it makes it feel like even then it wont be enough. So its just my human nature to be super excited almost to a addiction level. And getting good at my previous ventures didnt take days.. it took years. And there have been days and weeks without sleep cause things werent going right but not once did i ever think "gosh i will just give up." (however all that did slow down my studies since i decided to take a 3 year break from it which i am back now to finish up my last class).


all the cons you mentioned, i can definitely deal with it to a degree. Sure i can deal with agression and biting but if it was everyday that i had to deal with it after i put in everything humanely possible, then your right that it probably was a mistake. and thats why i am thinking twice about it now. but who would honestly? I dont think anyone wants a bird who will attack and bite them every day. But honestly with how i am, i just dont see that as even plausible with how much work i will put into it. But there is always possibility like you said.
Nir
Poicephalus
 
Gender: This parrot forum member is male
Posts: 317
Number of Birds Owned: 4
Types of Birds Owned: Budgies
Flight: Yes

Re: Went to breeder. In love with senegals!

Postby Michael » Mon Jul 30, 2012 7:51 pm

Nir wrote:I mean only reason i am thinking otherwise now is because you are very reputable and the way your describing this, it seems like senegal is a bird thats much harder to raise and live with compared to other birds.


NO. That is not what I meant. What I meant is that they are harder than it might seem and in absolutely no way compared to other parrots. If not this problem, then they'll have some other. I'm just giving you the inside scoop on Senegals compared to what a store, beginner, or someone who wants to paint a good image would tell you. I'm only comparing Senegals to themselves or no bird at all. I am not qualified nor desire to make a comparison of them to other parrots. I just want you to know in greater depth how they are and not just the surface stuff to make an informed decision.

Nir wrote:I am only very excited because thats just how i am. I am finishing up my last class in college and while that i got very addicted to poker and i lived and dreamed poker and because of that hard work, i became a poker pro high stakes cash player and was making more then i would when i graduate in my college years. Then usa laws made it very hard to gamble so i had a backup plan i was working on which was trading options. So i started reading 1 2-300 book every 2-3 days and finished many books and started trading with what i saved from gambling. and same as poker, that is pretty much all i did. i dreamt it i lived it 24 hours reading company financial statements, 10ks and everything. And now thats what i do independently. So its hard for me not to get excited about something. When i want to do something i give it my 100%. But they way your describing it makes it feel like even then it wont be enough. So its just my human nature to be super excited almost to a addiction level. And getting good at my previous ventures didnt take days.. it took years. And there have been days and weeks without sleep cause things werent going right but not once did i ever think "gosh i will just give up." (however all that did slow down my studies since i decided to take a 3 year break from it which i am back now to finish up my last class).


See this is where I am most hesitant about recommending any animal at all to you but especially a parrot. Impulse, addiction, etc are very dangerous when it comes to parrots. Mostly because it wears off. If someone was super super excited/dedicated to a parrot (to an insane degree) from day 1 and could sustain it until the parrot's natural death, that might be fine. However, since people's live inevitably change and in reality lose interest in the birds over time, THAT is what is soooo harmful to the bird/relationship. It's when the bird stops getting the kind of attention it had grown accustomed to that problems start happening like screaming/plucking. Even if you foresee yourself being equally dedicated to the bird in 20 years, there may still be alternative commitments (job, wife, kids, life) that get between you and your initial excitement with the bird.

When I got Kili I was finishing college and didn't give her too much time. Since graduating and working, I've maintained a similar schedule so nothing changed too drastically. On the other hand, spending all day at home with bird now and then getting a full time job away from home in a few years would be majorly detrimental to any parrot (except for perhaps a budgie).

You have not had your Budgie long (1 month, right?) so that hardly stands the test of time for commitment.

Nir wrote:I dont think anyone wants a bird who will attack and bite them every day.


Yet there are people that knowingly rescue a parrot knowing damn well that the bird will always bite and be difficult out of the kindness of their heart. I'm not going to say anyone goes out specifically looking for a biter, but when it comes to choosing against other flaws, to some of us it is more manageable. To me a biter is far more negotiable than a screamer. The screamer would irritate me far too much while the biter I feel I could work with or learn to work around. For other people it may be the other way around which is part of what draws us to specific species.

Nir wrote:But honestly with how i am, i just dont see that as even plausible with how much work i will put into it.


Actually it's the impulsiveness/addiction that I think would be the cause of many problems to begin with. A quick assessment of your situation strictly based on what you've shared, my guess would be that you'd over-stimulate (too much attention, training, cuddling, etc) the bird up front, then over time it would dwindle (doesn't matter whether it's lose of interest or busyness due to other commitments) and drive the worst traits from the bird and inevitably ruin the relationship and possibly lead to rehoming.

---

BTW I do appreciate you talking to people about this, listening, and considering it. No one is saying you're a bad person, trying to insult, or imply anything. Most people just run out and get a bird first and don't bother asking questions until they've developed significant problems. Unfortunately, much of the time the only way to prevent the problems is not getting a bird in the first place if the circumstances aren't ideal for it. There are a ton of people who have parrots who REALLY should never have gotten it. They are really hard to work with but it's better than having more rescues. But if it's possible to talk a potential owner out of buying one than becoming one of the contributors to rescue, it is the most preemptive way. I would like some highly suitable (and foreseeably successful) people to get parrots and care for them. However, these animals are just too wild, intelligent, and impossible for most people to own.
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Michael
Macaw
 
Gender: This parrot forum member is male
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Location: New York
Number of Birds Owned: 3
Types of Birds Owned: Senegal Parrot, Cape Parrot, Green-Winged Macaw
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Re: Went to breeder. In love with senegals!

Postby Nir » Mon Jul 30, 2012 8:24 pm

Michael wrote:
Nir wrote:I mean only reason i am thinking otherwise now is because you are very reputable and the way your describing this, it seems like senegal is a bird thats much harder to raise and live with compared to other birds.


NO. That is not what I meant. What I meant is that they are harder than it might seem and in absolutely no way compared to other parrots. If not this problem, then they'll have some other. I'm just giving you the inside scoop on Senegals compared to what a store, beginner, or someone who wants to paint a good image would tell you. I'm only comparing Senegals to themselves or no bird at all. I am not qualified nor desire to make a comparison of them to other parrots. I just want you to know in greater depth how they are and not just the surface stuff to make an informed decision.

Nir wrote:I am only very excited because thats just how i am. I am finishing up my last class in college and while that i got very addicted to poker and i lived and dreamed poker and because of that hard work, i became a poker pro high stakes cash player and was making more then i would when i graduate in my college years. Then usa laws made it very hard to gamble so i had a backup plan i was working on which was trading options. So i started reading 1 2-300 book every 2-3 days and finished many books and started trading with what i saved from gambling. and same as poker, that is pretty much all i did. i dreamt it i lived it 24 hours reading company financial statements, 10ks and everything. And now thats what i do independently. So its hard for me not to get excited about something. When i want to do something i give it my 100%. But they way your describing it makes it feel like even then it wont be enough. So its just my human nature to be super excited almost to a addiction level. And getting good at my previous ventures didnt take days.. it took years. And there have been days and weeks without sleep cause things werent going right but not once did i ever think "gosh i will just give up." (however all that did slow down my studies since i decided to take a 3 year break from it which i am back now to finish up my last class).


See this is where I am most hesitant about recommending any animal at all to you but especially a parrot. Impulse, addiction, etc are very dangerous when it comes to parrots. Mostly because it wears off. If someone was super super excited/dedicated to a parrot (to an insane degree) from day 1 and could sustain it until the parrot's natural death, that might be fine. However, since people's live inevitably change and in reality lose interest in the birds over time, THAT is what is soooo harmful to the bird/relationship. It's when the bird stops getting the kind of attention it had grown accustomed to that problems start happening like screaming/plucking. Even if you foresee yourself being equally dedicated to the bird in 20 years, there may still be alternative commitments (job, wife, kids, life) that get between you and your initial excitement with the bird.

When I got Kili I was finishing college and didn't give her too much time. Since graduating and working, I've maintained a similar schedule so nothing changed too drastically. On the other hand, spending all day at home with bird now and then getting a full time job away from home in a few years would be majorly detrimental to any parrot (except for perhaps a budgie).

You have not had your Budgie long (1 month, right?) so that hardly stands the test of time for commitment.

Nir wrote:I dont think anyone wants a bird who will attack and bite them every day.


Yet there are people that knowingly rescue a parrot knowing damn well that the bird will always bite and be difficult out of the kindness of their heart. I'm not going to say anyone goes out specifically looking for a biter, but when it comes to choosing against other flaws, to some of us it is more manageable. To me a biter is far more negotiable than a screamer. The screamer would irritate me far too much while the biter I feel I could work with or learn to work around. For other people it may be the other way around which is part of what draws us to specific species.

Nir wrote:But honestly with how i am, i just dont see that as even plausible with how much work i will put into it.


Actually it's the impulsiveness/addiction that I think would be the cause of many problems to begin with. A quick assessment of your situation strictly based on what you've shared, my guess would be that you'd over-stimulate (too much attention, training, cuddling, etc) the bird up front, then over time it would dwindle (doesn't matter whether it's lose of interest or busyness due to other commitments) and drive the worst traits from the bird and inevitably ruin the relationship and possibly lead to rehoming.

---

BTW I do appreciate you talking to people about this, listening, and considering it. No one is saying you're a bad person, trying to insult, or imply anything. Most people just run out and get a bird first and don't bother asking questions until they've developed significant problems. Unfortunately, much of the time the only way to prevent the problems is not getting a bird in the first place if the circumstances aren't ideal for it. There are a ton of people who have parrots who REALLY should never have gotten it. They are really hard to work with but it's better than having more rescues. But if it's possible to talk a potential owner out of buying one than becoming one of the contributors to rescue, it is the most preemptive way. I would like some highly suitable (and foreseeably successful) people to get parrots and care for them. However, these animals are just too wild, intelligent, and impossible for most people to own.


the current budgie i have is for 1.5 months right now. but prior to him i had 3 other budgies for 7-10 years who were all very tame and friendly but i guess thats easy for budgies.

I mean if i do get one i will do whatever is necessary and whatever is recommeneded by people like you or ginger or others who are knowledgeable. If giving it too much attention is a problem (since i might not be able to sustain it for the 30+ years, then i will give it as much attention as i can handle so i CAN sustain it. every problem has a solution.

i just had a very long talk with ginger on the phone and i want to thank her greatly for taking the time out of the day to answer many questions and give me a good outline how things might be. After talking to her i am starting to strongly consider a timneh grey as well. But time will tell.. I wont be making any decisions for a long time until i am 100% on it. This is a long commitment and i will make sure the decision i make is right for me.
Nir
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Re: Went to breeder. In love with senegals!

Postby Mona » Tue Jul 31, 2012 12:37 pm

I don't know...I haven't been bitten in a long, long time...Can't remember when the last time I was bitten...so, I don't think of biting as a problem....My timneh absolutely DOES NOT bite. The only time she has ever bitten was in play. I took her to assisted living facilities once or twice a week for three years and I couldn't do that if I couldn't trust her 100%. The Senegals aren't 100% trustworthy but I'd put them closer to 90% in an unfamiliar environment...(except for Jack. Jack is a fear biter)

One thing you need to recognize with Senegals is that the come from an environment with a lot of predators and scarce resources. I think the key to managing aggression is to manage resources so the bird does not perceive scarcity. That also applies to people. I don't find territory to be an aggression trigger (my hen loves it when I play "nestbox" with her) but I do think perceived "scarcity" can be.

TAG's are bigger and both my greys are fine with the Senegals. My CAG, KIRI, is definitely the queen and every body defers to her. Bailey (Senegal) loves to follow her around and talk to her but I have seen her turn around and go after him on occassion. Since they all fly, I don't confine them together....but for the most part, they all get along just fine. I think greys tend not to be biters unless you mess up on your socialization. The difference between Sengals and greys are that greys tend to be a little more "reasonable". If you tell a grey what you are going to do before you do it, they often accept it. You can't talk a Senegal into anything.
Mona in Seattle
Phinneous Fowl (aka Phinney) TAG
Babylon Sengal
Doug (spousal unit)
Jack and Bailey (Gremlins)
Kiri (CAG)
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Mona
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