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Anyone here owned a Senegal AND a african grey?

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Re: Anyone here owned a Senegal AND a african grey?

Postby Mona » Tue Jul 31, 2012 12:52 pm

I wrote a long post that disappeared into cyber space somehow..(grin) but I have to respectfully disagree on the greys biting issue. I think that of all species of birds, they tend to bite less.

Both of my greys seldom bite at all. Kiri is 20 years old and Phinney is 16. For three years, I took Phinney to the assisted living area of a nursing home once or twice a week and we did tricks for the oldsters. I couldn't do that if I did not absolutely trust her. I trust Phinney 100%. The only time she ever bites is if we are playing...rough play...and it's more like a puppy bites. She goes for an object and misses. She does not fear bite ever. Kiri does not fear bite. If a grey bites, it is usually a manipulation. Often, it is a manipulation they are taught. Greys are usually easy because if you talk to them and tell them what you are going to do before you do it, they can learn to go along with it. I can't talk my Senegals into much at all. They are more stubborn than the greys.

I think the biting and attacking stuff is way, way over the top in these discussions. Yes, parrots bite. Probably...most parrots will bite at one time or another but you just recognize their boundaries and work with that. I don't let strangers pet Phinney because she doesn't like it...instead, she waves. It works out really well. One of my Senegals, Bailey...goes to just about anybody and really doesn't bite very often. He really loves my husband and my husband is an absolute WOOS about biting. He wouldn't put up with that at all. I also think attacking is about managing what the animal perceives as a "scarce resource". Senegals (not greys) can be emotional about what they perceive as a "Scarce resource".
Mona in Seattle
Phinneous Fowl (aka Phinney) TAG
Babylon Sengal
Doug (spousal unit)
Jack and Bailey (Gremlins)
Kiri (CAG)
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Poicephalus
 
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Re: Anyone here owned a Senegal AND a african grey?

Postby Mona » Tue Jul 31, 2012 1:00 pm

My five birds are caged separately but every day I let them out as a flock. All five are flighted and they all play and follow each other around. Jack and Babylon are boyfriend/girlfriend. Bailey follows Kiri around and talkes to her. Phinney nests in telephone books in the birdroom.

I used to have horses and we kept them as a herd. They had to be socialized and they had to work out the heirarchy but once they did that, they were happiest like that. Birds are different from horses but they can flock fine if you are sensitive to what you are doing with them. Babylon is the ONLY one of my five birds that will fly at the other birds, but she doesn't physically attack. For eight years, I flew her in a big fly group with many other species of birds. She was NEVER aggressive to any bird in that environment. At home, she can get aggressive but it is usually expressed more like "blowing off steam". She flies around and screams a lot. If she picks on Phinney, Phinney stands up to her so Babylon backs off. I won't keep the Senegals with lesser species. I purposely chose species that CAN defend themselves and no wimpy birds - (grin). The bird HAS to stand up for itself but if they do, no real problem. I encourage cooperation.

Anyway, I'm surprised by all of the posts about problems with aggression. I spend a lot of time with my birds but the VAST majority of the time, we get along. There are bad days...but the good days far, far outweight the bad days. Parrots can be moody so, okay...so can people!
Mona in Seattle
Phinneous Fowl (aka Phinney) TAG
Babylon Sengal
Doug (spousal unit)
Jack and Bailey (Gremlins)
Kiri (CAG)
http://www.flyingparrotsinside.com

youtube: Avian Flyers
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Re: Anyone here owned a Senegal AND a african grey?

Postby Mona » Tue Jul 31, 2012 1:11 pm

Having said all of that....and recognizing that everybody's situation is different...if I was going to look at the most probable scenario if you had a budgie and brought home either a TAG or a Senegal...

First, I'd keep the birds separate. No reason that they should be together.
Second, if you do that, I think the highest probability would be that both the Senegal and Tag would ignore the budgie.
Third, As they mature....The TAG will probably always ignore the budgie...and the Senegal may show interest in the budgie later...or may not...but again, I would just reinforce behaviors that kept the Senegal away from the budgie. I wouldn't have them both out together.

I wouldn't plan to flock a Senegal and a TImneh with a budgie...Budgies are just too fragile.

Just some thoughts on that....Both parrots will probably outlive the budgie by a good many years. Budgies have a much shorter life expectancy because they are smaller and their genetics aren't as close to the wild populations since they've been in captivity for so many years.

Thx

Mona
Mona in Seattle
Phinneous Fowl (aka Phinney) TAG
Babylon Sengal
Doug (spousal unit)
Jack and Bailey (Gremlins)
Kiri (CAG)
http://www.flyingparrotsinside.com

youtube: Avian Flyers
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Re: Anyone here owned a Senegal AND a african grey?

Postby Nir » Tue Jul 31, 2012 3:34 pm

Mona wrote:I wrote a long post that disappeared into cyber space somehow..(grin) but I have to respectfully disagree on the greys biting issue. I think that of all species of birds, they tend to bite less.

Both of my greys seldom bite at all. Kiri is 20 years old and Phinney is 16. For three years, I took Phinney to the assisted living area of a nursing home once or twice a week and we did tricks for the oldsters. I couldn't do that if I did not absolutely trust her. I trust Phinney 100%. The only time she ever bites is if we are playing...rough play...and it's more like a puppy bites. She goes for an object and misses. She does not fear bite ever. Kiri does not fear bite. If a grey bites, it is usually a manipulation. Often, it is a manipulation they are taught. Greys are usually easy because if you talk to them and tell them what you are going to do before you do it, they can learn to go along with it. I can't talk my Senegals into much at all. They are more stubborn than the greys.

I think the biting and attacking stuff is way, way over the top in these discussions. Yes, parrots bite. Probably...most parrots will bite at one time or another but you just recognize their boundaries and work with that. I don't let strangers pet Phinney because she doesn't like it...instead, she waves. It works out really well. One of my Senegals, Bailey...goes to just about anybody and really doesn't bite very often. He really loves my husband and my husband is an absolute WOOS about biting. He wouldn't put up with that at all. I also think attacking is about managing what the animal perceives as a "scarce resource". Senegals (not greys) can be emotional about what they perceive as a "Scarce resource".


well this is what i used to think when i wanted to get a senegal or grey or any other parrot. that parrots do bite but it can be managed and its not as often as is described here. Almost everyone i talk to always says that yes they do bite, can bite but its once in a blue moon type thing. And they are by no means a pro bird trainer. They are normal people. This is why i thought it would be ok to get another bird since i always wanted a bigger parrot then budgie(i always owned a budgie). And when i search for bird problems, i see a small % of times that a bird is a real big problem. So i am always surprised when people say "i got lucky" since it seems like more people are getting lucky then unlucky. But what do i know.. i can only go by what people tell me. And from this thread and other threads i made, it really seems like i will put my friends/family/ and my bird in great risk if i get another parrot even though their bird is a "lucky one" and thats not the norm apparently. and for that reason i decided that i probably shouldnt get one. I hate this decision a lot. trust me and deep inside i do think the biting issue is exaggerated greatly. A better norm which i think happens with senegals and other parrots that are raised right is that they bite once in awhile and only in occasion is it bad. But again this is just speculation and if everyone is saying that this is a horrible decision that i am making into getting a parrot and that parrots are horrible pets then its really hard to argue with that.

who knows.. maybe in the future i might change my mind but for now i think i am done. sigh. But i do thanks everyone for the replys. it is greatly appreciated. Special thanks to Ginger for the long long talk on the phone out of her busy schedule and michael for the continuous straight forward long posts.
Nir
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Re: Anyone here owned a Senegal AND a african grey?

Postby pchela » Tue Jul 31, 2012 3:39 pm

thanks for the response and this does help. Sucks that sennies doesnt get along with other birds. This is the most important thing thats making me shift my decision to a timneh. You mentioned that if you didnt have either birds now you would choose a timneh. Thats actually good to know. But can you eloborate why? Is it because the sennie might hurt future birds you might get? Honestly if i didnt have any other birds then i would want the sennie. Also have you seen any difference in the cuddliness of each bird and how there termperment is towards you? Does 1 want to spend time with you willingly more often then the other?(i know 2 much attention is bad but i want to know if he actually wants to spend time with you).


Didn't answer this earlier - sorry -

As far as cuddliness and temperament go, they both equally want my attention and both love to be on me getting scratches or just hanging out. By equally, I mean they would both be on me the majority of the day if I allowed it - so yes, they want to be with me for sure. Pippin loves to sit on my shoulder and rub his head on my cheek (a very endearing behavior) and Isabeau wants to either sit on my lap and get scratches for hours on end or she wants to be on my shoulder messing with my hair and ears.

As far as choosing a Timneh if I had it to do over again, for me, Greys just embody most of the qualities I want in a parrot companion. They are sweet, smart and chatty and like to spend time with their people - they are calmer than some birds which is a plus for me. But, my Grey is actually the most energetic of my three so it really comes down to the individual birds and the socialization they get from their breeder and owners. I'd actually like a Caique as well but I would never recommend a Caique to anybody but an expert parrot keeper.

As far as biting, neither my Senegal or Timneh ever bite me. I know they have the potential, but they don't. I've only received a bite from my Red Belly. I mean, my Senegal was nippy when he was a "toddler" but he's never bit in anger nor has my Timneh - she's is a rehome so I don't know if she was nippy as a "toddler".

Mona/Michael - do you have any tips for my Sennie's bullying? How do you train away the bullying behavior?
"I bet the sparrow looks at the parrot and thinks, yes, you can talk, but LISTEN TO YOURSELF!" ~ Jack Handy ~ Deep Thoughts
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Re: Anyone here owned a Senegal AND a african grey?

Postby Eurycerus » Tue Jul 31, 2012 3:41 pm

pchela wrote:Mona/Michael - do you have any tips for my Sennie's bullying? How do you train away the bullying behavior?


I would love to know this as well. I think it may be what my Senegal does. I stood up to her and now she doesn't do it, but wow! it hurt!

She did it to my mom which is unfortunate....
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Re: Anyone here owned a Senegal AND a african grey?

Postby Michael » Tue Jul 31, 2012 4:12 pm

pchela wrote:Mona/Michael - do you have any tips for my Sennie's bullying? How do you train away the bullying behavior?


It never went away entirely but has somewhat diminished. I'm back to being able to keep them a few hours in aviary together and no injuries for a while. Here are some of the strategies involved:

1) Knowing damn well that bullying can come back any time and being careful
2) After 2 years Truman learned his lesson and flies away BEFORE he gets attacked
3) Keeping Kili's weight managed and not letting her get too fat. She becomes more territorial and develops a drive to chase intruders out when she is well fed. I think it's reproductive instinct of protecting territory for raising babies that kicks in.
4) Taking them places together a lot. They don't fight away from home and end up looking out for each other. Over time this has reduced tension.

So at home, as long as Kili gets what she wants first, Truman isn't getting too much attention, actually more like Truman gets shafted out of his share, and she isn't too hormonal, she lets him live another day. In the aviary for instance she will drive him off of every single perch and make him cling to the bars. She doesn't even want to play with anything but it kills her for him to be happy. Same at home. If I call Kili to fly over for petting, she won't come. So I call Truman and he does. Then all of a sudden she just has to have it too and keeps trying to make flyby attacks to drive him away. I just cover him so he doesn't get hurt in my hands and prevent her from succeeding. By not over-feeding her, energy is a bit more precious so she is less motivated to waste it on attacks then. Of course she is not starved and competing for food. I just make sure she doesn't have excess.

Things do vary a bit more seasonally and there are definitely worse times than others. But aside from that I have it under control but they are by no means friends.
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Re: Anyone here owned a Senegal AND a african grey?

Postby cml » Tue Jul 31, 2012 4:16 pm

can bite but its once in a blue moon type thing

Its more often than that, for me, maybe once a day.

everyone is saying that this is a horrible decision that i am making into getting a parrot and that parrots are horrible pets

I disagree, its a decision you should think through, but its not destined to be a horrible decision. Niether do I think parrots are horrible pets, they are not EASY pets, but I love them all the same!

I dont think this thread is completely true from either perspective, but then, I havnt had parrots for more than a year. I think you need to start taking the advice from people seriously, I think that from some of your posts it sounds as if you arent listening to the people with years and years of experience.

At the same time, parrot ownership, while hard and full of challenges isnt all bad and I dont think it should be portrayed as such ^^. Would anyone of us be here if we didnt think it worthwhile?
Stitch (WFA) and Leroy (BWP)
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Re: Anyone here owned a Senegal AND a african grey?

Postby Michael » Tue Jul 31, 2012 4:18 pm

Nir wrote:trust me and deep inside i do think the biting issue is exaggerated greatly. A better norm which i think happens with senegals and other parrots that are raised right is that they bite once in awhile and only in occasion is it bad. But again this is just speculation and if everyone is saying that this is a horrible decision that i am making into getting a parrot and that parrots are horrible pets then its really hard to argue with that.


I don't think it's being exaggerated at all. I just think it is being given spotlight and attention because it is a real issue. Even if it only occupies 1% of the time in the span of a year, it is significant enough to dictate 100% of how your relationship goes. If the bird learns to manipulate you (or others) through biting, this little issue ends up driving the entire relationship. If the parrot tries to harm your other bird just 1% of the time, it's still enough over a few years to have a lethal situation. Pchela, Ginger, Mona, and I have had situations where our Senegals have hurt other birds. But the other birds were big enough (in most cases) to survive it alright.

My entire point is not necessarily not to consider a bigger parrot but to specifically consider how it can still work out safely under the worst case scenario. If this scenario (like keeping them entirely separate) is not appealing to you, then you are definitely right not to add anything larger than a Cockatiel to a budgie.
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Re: Anyone here owned a Senegal AND a african grey?

Postby Nir » Tue Jul 31, 2012 4:23 pm

cml wrote:
can bite but its once in a blue moon type thing

Its more often than that, for me, maybe once a day.

everyone is saying that this is a horrible decision that i am making into getting a parrot and that parrots are horrible pets

I disagree, its a decision you should think through, but its not destined to be a horrible decision. Niether do I think parrots are horrible pets, they are not EASY pets, but I love them all the same!

I dont think this thread is completely true from either perspective, but then, I havnt had parrots for more than a year. I think you need to start taking the advice from people seriously, I think that from some of your posts it sounds as if you arent listening to the people with years and years of experience.

At the same time, parrot ownership, while hard and full of challenges isnt all bad and I dont think it should be portrayed as such ^^. Would anyone of us be here if we didnt think it worthwhile?



its more that i hate what i am hearing but i understand that it is true since they have 10x more experience then me. So thats why i am not going to get a parrot. trust me i HATE it and it saddens me greatly but i think i would be very irresponsible if i do get one after everything i read.
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