Is it normal for handfed baby senegals to be nippy?

[Eurycerus]

i am doomed. sigh

I am actually pretty annoyed by your comment. Stop being so self pitying and grow up. This isn't all about you. She's a parrot, a living, breathing animal with fears, interests, and a working mind. There are many challenges in life and you chose this challenge after learning a lot about Senegals and that they can be difficult. Now be a bigger person, learn some patience, and go back to the basics. It may take a really long time, or it may not, but if you learn how your parrot works and how to integrate what you've learned, hopefully everything will work out.

[janetafloat]

I've just read through this thread and it does sound to me like this little bird has been mishandled before she came to Nir, or at least not been given any attention during the hand feeding. I think that some breeders just stick a spoon in the bird's face, feed it and leave it, which results in a very different bird to the trusting curiosity of a well hand raised bird, such as Truman showed when he first came out of his transporter, for example. I went to see a cockatiel that had supposedly been hand reared by a breeder that runs a shop in Wales selling all sorts of parrots, all supposedly hand reared. I went to see the cockatiel the day it and its siblings been moved from the breeder's home to the shop. The owner grabbed the bird out of the cage then crushed it to her chest while rubbing it's beak roughly with its little head crammed back against her arm. The bird was shrieking and struggling the whole time and when she finally put it back in the cage it looked utterly dishevelled and freaked out. I didn't know very much about birds at that point but I did know that I'd never seen anything like that, and that that wasn't what was supposed to happen. Anyway, sorry, I digress, just saying....

My take on what's going on, Nir, is that you need to stop everything, take a week out and just spend time sitting with your bird talking to her quietly sometimes, sometimes just reading or sitting there. Both you and the bird need to learn that when she takes tiny steps towards you that's enough, that nothing else is going to be asked of her, for now anyway. I love training animals, and it's a great thing in the long run, but it has to start with the beginnings of trust, and that's not there right now. Offer your bird a treat, speak softly to her and gently praise her when she takes it. Let that be enough for at least a week, until you see her coming toward you by choice or at least showing interest in you. And take that time yourself to just observe her and start learning how to read her body language and reactions, to notice even tiny changes in her behaviour and how she responds to her environment.

There endeth the lesson for the day! You've got a long time ahead with this bird, there's no rush, enjoy the journey

[Nir]

i am doomed. sigh

I am actually pretty annoyed by your comment. Stop being so self pitying and grow up. This isn't all about you. She's a parrot, a living, breathing animal with fears, interests, and a working mind. There are many challenges in life and you chose this challenge after learning a lot about Senegals and that they can be difficult. Now be a bigger person, learn some patience, and go back to the basics. It may take a really long time, or it may not, but if you learn how your parrot works and how to integrate what you've learned, hopefully everything will work out.

i was honestly just putting a light humor by saying that. Didnt mean it seriously..

there is no giving up in me. i love her! and we are getting better every day. Might take longer then i thought but for sure this will work.

[Nir]

I've just read through this thread and it does sound to me like this little bird has been mishandled before she came to Nir, or at least not been given any attention during the hand feeding. I think that some breeders just stick a spoon in the bird's face, feed it and leave it, which results in a very different bird to the trusting curiosity of a well hand raised bird, such as Truman showed when he first came out of his transporter, for example. I went to see a cockatiel that had supposedly been hand reared by a breeder that runs a shop in Wales selling all sorts of parrots, all supposedly hand reared. I went to see the cockatiel the day it and its siblings been moved from the breeder's home to the shop. The owner grabbed the bird out of the cage then crushed it to her chest while rubbing it's beak roughly with its little head crammed back against her arm. The bird was shrieking and struggling the whole time and when she finally put it back in the cage it looked utterly dishevelled and freaked out. I didn't know very much about birds at that point but I did know that I'd never seen anything like that, and that that wasn't what was supposed to happen. Anyway, sorry, I digress, just saying....

My take on what's going on, Nir, is that you need to stop everything, take a week out and just spend time sitting with your bird talking to her quietly sometimes, sometimes just reading or sitting there. Both you and the bird need to learn that when she takes tiny steps towards you that's enough, that nothing else is going to be asked of her, for now anyway. I love training animals, and it's a great thing in the long run, but it has to start with the beginnings of trust, and that's not there right now. Offer your bird a treat, speak softly to her and gently praise her when she takes it. Let that be enough for at least a week, until you see her coming toward you by choice or at least showing interest in you. And take that time yourself to just observe her and start learning how to read her body language and reactions, to notice even tiny changes in her behaviour and how she responds to her environment.

There endeth the lesson for the day! You've got a long time ahead with this bird, there's no rush, enjoy the journey

thanks for the post. ya we are progressing. i don't do anything that would make her go away from me now on. I just feed her treats and throughout the day i only target train for few mins because she really seems to like it. She doesn't just walk to the target but RUNS to it. so i figure that target training is fine with her. also she takes treats without any aggression at all and while she is eating it, i just talk/praise her.

right now she is just hanging out in her cage while i work. and ocasionally i just talk to her/ give her treat and thats it. she doesnt walk away from me when i come or anything.

[Andromeda]

andromeda. I put my finger near cage maybe 2 times. I am not stupid enough to keep testing her. But if the 2 times i put my fingers near cage was what did it then that sucks.

I of course exaggerated the "gazillion" part. but only on the first day did i try to touch her and after that i have been patient. I never cornered her.

I'm not insinuating that you're stupid. You're now claiming that you didn't "keep testing her" or "corner her" but surely you realize where I would get that idea!

i was able to step her up after a gazillion bites. (i mean bites where she actually latches on to and presses hard . it drew blood once).

I understand that "a gazillion" is an exaggeration but I took that to mean "a lot" and the fact remains that if you triggered numerous bites to push for a step-up the interaction was forced.

But i see the point that even doing what i did, i might have increased the behavior.

It's really easy and common for a first-time bird owner (or first-time with a larger bird) to accidentally reinforce biting. The most important thing to know about biting is avoid the bite in the first place because then there is no possibility for it to be inadvertently reinforced.

He drew blood the first day (after he slept the night prior after flight). I did probably reinforce it unknowingly.

Well reading your last post you say that you only tried to touch her and get her to step-up on day one and what I was asking was if the very first bite you received was the one that drew blood. "Fear aggression" is a natural response in a bird and a clipped bird will bite if it's afraid. It will bite harder and harder over time as it becomes more distressed or continues to be confronted with the scary object, so I'm trying to understand if the strength of the bite escalated over the course of your interaction.

Still, I'm not ruling out that the bird was mishandled in some way prior to arriving at your place, especially since you say she stands still and bites instead of attempting to retreat. That's telling.

Is she flighted? (I'm guessing not as a flighted bird will try to fly away as opposed to bite).

since then , the only time i got bit is when i go to change his food and she is near it. or if if i curiously try to "see" if she is is over the fear now lol. But i havent done that much anymore either.

It's a wild animal and if it's afraid of hands it's not just going to "get over" the fear for no reason and testing her is actually just training her to bite. Every time she bites (or tries to bite) and then the hand goes away, that is called reinforcement and behaviors that are reinforced will increase in frequency.

i am doomed. sigh

Not at all, you're learning what you're doing wrong and what you're doing right and adjusting your behavior accordingly.

janetafloat had a great comment and I was going to agree 100% that you should completely stop everything for now but then you said she RUNS to the targeting stick so it seems she's very excited about that and I don't see a reason to stop targeting with her if it's something she's enjoying. (I just want to make sure here that she's not running to attack the stick out of aggression, though?) I mean if the interaction is fun for both you and the bird and it's conducive to building trust and good behavior you should continue with it.

[Nir]

thanks andromeda. I wanted her to be flighted but my breeder (who is actually known and been doing it for a long time) insisted to clip. so right before he was going to ship her, we decided on giving her a very light clip. Right now she can pretty much fly across the room (not float but fly). However i doubt she can make a full circle. she usually just flys from left to right on occasion since she is still clipped even if its a small one. And know she actually doesn't fly away when i go near her which i think is a good thing? Now on she doesn't walk away either (which she did before). When she walked away before i read that you aren't supposed to follow her so i just let her walk away and just talk for a bit and then let her be. But nowadays i try to never give her a reason to walk away and so far its going well. I am sure i did some idiotic things unknowingly but i am becoming more aware of what i do as i go. i plan to keep her flighted.

I had been implementing the same diet as she was on while weening as per my breeders request. I had been telling him of my concern. So everything she ate there is what i bought and am giving. I think its been helping. but we shall see. right now she is enjoying her nutriberry and almond. Also put more toys inside the cage and around cage so he has other things to bite. so maybe she can learn to distinguish stuff she should bite (toys) and stuff she shouldnt (me). Lets see if this all helps.

[Eurycerus]

i was honestly just putting a light humor by saying that. Didnt mean it seriously..

there is no giving up in me. i love her! and we are getting better every day. Might take longer then i thought but for sure this will work.

Okay good. Sorry I misunderstood. :] You'll be amazed to look back in six months at the progress. The advice of everyone on here helped a ton with Nika, but the ultimate things that helped was patience, treats! and avoiding any movement that would result in a bite.

I understand that "a gazillion" is an exaggeration but I took that to mean "a lot" and the fact remains that if you triggered numerous bites to push for a step-up the interaction was forced.

I can remember each of Nika's bites distinctly because although she was aggressive I made sure to avoid the circumstance that caused her bites. Therefore, I was seriously bit a total of four times, but that number could've been exponentially higher if I hadn't taken a step back. I still don't know exactly what caused her to act out and she didn't give much warning either, but I had to get past that and honestly did a ton of cage work and then was very careful when I finally took her out. It was a fine line I walked when I worked with her. Neither Nika nor I trusted one another for a long while but I worked hard everyday with her and now she and I work together quite well. You will too!

It's really easy and common for a first-time bird owner (or first-time with a larger bird) to accidentally reinforce biting. The most important thing to know about biting is avoid the bite in the first place because then there is no possibility for it to be inadvertently reinforced...

I agree with this. I sadly get the feeling that although Nika was aggressive (her first bite to me was not gentle, or a warning, it was a full on, flesh tearing bite) I reinforced her biting. I was incredibly frustrated with myself. So you probably reinforced her biting too, but I promise you can work through it. You and your feathery friend will be buddies. Looking at Nika's progress is what gives me hope for Diggy and I and you and your friend. :]

Is she flighted? (I'm guessing not as a flighted bird will try to fly away as opposed to bite).

I wish I could test this theory out on someone. I feel like aggressive parrots would just become flighted terrors (I swear Nika would just dive bomb my boyfriend, but hey maybe not). I feel like this theory may only apply with fearful parrots. Also, sounds like Nika was clipped just a little more than your guy but made a full flighted recovery in five-ish months, so I bet you'll be okay on that front.

[Nir]

well if kiwi wanted to , she could definitely dive bomb me even though she is slightly clipped but she doesnt. Now on when she flys somewhere or even to floor, i dont pick her up because that would scare her more. i instead let her fly back since she is well able to. Also kiwi never flies away eventhough she can when i go near her or did put my hand close enough to bite. She usually dared me come and then bit me but that was early on and now i dont let it ever get to the point where she feels threatened.

[janetafloat]

Sounds like you're getting there And if she likes the target training then yes, don't stop. It's funny how that seems to be such a popular activity amongst our feathered friends. Scout adores it too and pads across the coffee table to the target stick aka chopstick and repeatedly lifts and drop the end with one eye on me as if to say 'come on, let's do some more'

[Nir]

Question. Aren't all babies supposed to have a leg band? I don't see one on her.