Trained Parrot BlogParrot Wizard Online Parrot Toy StoreThe Parrot Forum

Flight Recall Still Unreliable

Discuss topics associated with teaching birds to fly. Training parrots recall flight, target flying, and other flying exercises.

Flight Recall Still Unreliable

Postby Michael » Wed Mar 10, 2010 2:31 pm

I'm still looking for a method to make flight recall more reliable. There are times when Kili will recall pretty consistently and other times when she won't come for anything. This doesn't seem to be the case so much with other tricks or step up. She'll step up on the first attempt better than 95% of the time. Meanwhile I wouldn't estimate recalls to be better than 30% on the first try and 70% within three tries. Basically there are times when she just won't come or won't come till I call several times.

You could blame this on lack of motivation except she will do every other cued trick in the same session off the first try, correctly, and with scarce rewarding. I'm not really sure why recall (even after all these months) remains the weakest link with her. During non-training times I have a much better chance of getting her to say hello or turn around then I do for her to recall. I would think recall should be more intuitive for a parrot. "Fly over here to get your treat."

Anyone have a very reliable recall routine? Any suggestions?
User avatar
Michael
Macaw
 
Gender: This parrot forum member is male
Posts: 6286
Location: New York
Number of Birds Owned: 3
Types of Birds Owned: Senegal Parrot, Cape Parrot, Green-Winged Macaw
Flight: Yes

Re: Flight Recall Still Unreliable

Postby Suzzique » Wed Mar 10, 2010 2:59 pm

I to would love any suggestions. I've been trying for over 2 years to get Alex to come to me when called and he still wont do it. He knows go back but wont come here.

I've been thinking about getting the 50 foot leash that the makers of the aviator harnes make along with his new harnes and work with him and one of the family outside. There is more room and he is more likely to come to me sense he can't just fly to one of his fav landing spots like he does in the house.
Alex - cag
Martini - senegal
User avatar
Suzzique
Conure
 
Gender: This parrot forum member is female
Posts: 137
Location: San Diego
Number of Birds Owned: 2
Types of Birds Owned: CAG, Senegal
Flight: Yes

Re: Flight Recall Still Unreliable

Postby Michael » Wed Mar 10, 2010 3:12 pm

Don't get me wrong though. She does know recall and when she does it, she does it well. The problem is that she doesn't do it with 90%+ reliability which makes me quite nervous about taking her outside on the harness. You really shouldn't harness fly a parrot outside unless it is pretty much trained enough to fly outside without one. The harness is just a backup for in case the parrot gets startled and flies off and really not for keeping it in your control.

I've taken Kili outside with her short harness twice already and put her on the tree in the backyard (gotta get some videos of this). She loved it and didn't much notice the harness. I could get her to cooperate and do tricks or step up from the tree no problem. However, recalling her to me out of the tree left much to be desired (and I'm only talking about a 5ft and under recall). Sometimes she'd come but most of the time not. This makes me worried that if the harness was longer or broke and she landed higher in a tree where I could reach her (like with this one) that I wouldn't be able to get her to come down out of it.

I realize that starving the bird prior to such an outdoor session could increase hunger based motivation but a food treat doesn't seem to be enough to make it reliable. She'll still do her tricks or step up for me from the tree, just not recall. So I'm thinking there has to be something else I gotta do to make the recall better.

For just basics of how to train recall to a parrot you can refer to my flight tricks training article. My issue is not to get her to recall to begin with but to get reliability and consistency closer to 100%. I'll try to chart in the next few weeks the actual recall reliability ratio with Kili to get a better picture of it and post my findings here.
User avatar
Michael
Macaw
 
Gender: This parrot forum member is male
Posts: 6286
Location: New York
Number of Birds Owned: 3
Types of Birds Owned: Senegal Parrot, Cape Parrot, Green-Winged Macaw
Flight: Yes

Re: Flight Recall Still Unreliable

Postby Suzzique » Wed Mar 10, 2010 6:57 pm

Alex is already use to being outside. I've been taking him outside sense he was maybe 6 months old. I take him out so much (except for our short kind of cold season) that he has chewed therw his harnes. The reason I can't work with him inside is that I have a fairly small house and he will not fly to me or a family member with any kind of reliability because he will go to places he likes to land insted. Hence going outside with him to work. If he and I were not already very use to going outside I wouldn't think of doing it.

I'm not trying to say that is what others or even yourself should do. Just my reason for myself and my bird.
Alex - cag
Martini - senegal
User avatar
Suzzique
Conure
 
Gender: This parrot forum member is female
Posts: 137
Location: San Diego
Number of Birds Owned: 2
Types of Birds Owned: CAG, Senegal
Flight: Yes

Re: Flight Recall Still Unreliable

Postby Michael » Fri Mar 12, 2010 4:38 pm

I decided to try to keep track and record my flight recall stats and post my findings to be able to track performance and improvement. Here are some things I learned from yesterdays training session:

40 recalls made, 30 treats, 115g, several other tricks, motivation 4/5, almond pieces used as recall treat

Overall recall stats:
32/40 1st attempt recall 80%
7/40 2nd attempt recall 17.5%
1/40 missed recall on 2nd attempt 2.5%

Early part of training session with fr1:

5/8 1st attempt recall 62.5%
3/8 2nd attempt recall 37.5%

Mid session recalls at vr3:

10/15 1st attempt recall 67%
5/15 2nd attempt recall 33%

Mid session recalls at fr1:

6/8 1st attempt 75%
1/8 2nd attempt 12.5%
1/8 missed attempt 12.5%

End of session recalls at fr1:

8/9 1st attempt 89%
1/9 2nd attempt 11%


I have to say she was pretty motivated this session and did better than expected. With the exception of one flight where she botched the landing and landed somewhere else, she always came within 2 calls and came on the first call 80% of the time. Her hunger, motivation, and focus where better than average and I focused primarily on recall during this training session which probably made results better than typical.

A very interesting discovery I made during this training session is that 1st attempt recall improved in the course of the training session rather than dwindle as I would have predicted. There was clearly some learning going on there. Also, it would appear that the frequency/ratio of reinforcement had no effect on recall success ratio. It seems that the improvement pattern had more to do with the number of recalls prior rather than the frequency of reinforcement. The implication is that more or more frequent rewarding does not necessarily improve recall response. With VR3 the parrot could do more recalls for the same number of treats so the value is a longer training session while satisfying the same hunger.

I stopped at 40 recalls because I felt like she had reached her peak and did not want to reach a point where motivation would decline. It is interesting to note that immediacy of recall continued to improve all the way up to the 40th recall rather than drop off from getting bored or tired. I will try to continue making these recordings and see what I find out.
User avatar
Michael
Macaw
 
Gender: This parrot forum member is male
Posts: 6286
Location: New York
Number of Birds Owned: 3
Types of Birds Owned: Senegal Parrot, Cape Parrot, Green-Winged Macaw
Flight: Yes

Re: Flight Recall Still Unreliable

Postby Michael » Fri Mar 12, 2010 10:50 pm

Just wanted to post the results from today's training session where I focused on recalls again. Since Kathleen was here the first 50 were all A to B between people. The last 20 were an experiment at VR4. Most of the failed 1st attempt recalls were the result of calling the bird from behind an obstruction or a missed landing rather than a refusal to recall. Most of these were line of sight recalls. The parrot was very well motivated and completed a long and exhilarating training session.

The reason I think she was able to do this many more recalls today more than yesterday was because the A to B recalls are one way each time. When I do recalls from a perch to me, it is usually round trip where I eventually send her back. Both today's and yesterday's session had her fly over half a mile.

70 recall attempts, 35 treats, 115g, several other tricks, motivation
5/5, misc seed treats


62/70 1st attempt recall 89%
5/70 2nd attempt recall 7%
3/70 missed recall on 2nd attempt 4%

#1 early fr1:
9/10 1st attempt recall 90%
0/10 2nd attempt recall 0%
1/10 not recall within 2 calls 10%

#2 mid session vr3:

9/10 1st attempt recall 90%
1/10 2nd attempt recall 10%

#3 mid session vr3:

9/10 1st attempt recall 80%
1/10 2nd attempt recall 10%
1/10 missed landing 10%

#4 mid session vr3:

8/10 1st attempt recall 80%
2/10 2nd attempt recall 20%

#5 mid session fr1:

10/10 1st attempt recall 100%

#6 end of session VR4 test trial

18/20 1st attempt recall 90%
1/20 2nd attempt recall 5%
1/20 not recall within 2 calls 5%


I'd like to get more results before making any definite conclusions but today's results tell me the same thing as yesterday. There is a fluke recall here and there but when the parrot is motivated she'll end up coming on the next try anyway. The fluke recalls are dispersed at a fairly consistent 1/10 ratio and seem difficult to be helped but they cause little concern for safe recall flight. Furthermore results from FR1 or VR3 reinforcement seem to have little difference but VR3 achieves more recalls for equal number of treats. While the stats would indicate an improvement from VR3 to VR4, this is partially biased because we went from A to B recalls to perch to me recalls. By the end of the VR4 session I could tell that the bird was tiring out and that any persistence would lead to failure. I observed motivation levels for the parrot steeply drop off thereafter the completion of flight training for other behaviors.
User avatar
Michael
Macaw
 
Gender: This parrot forum member is male
Posts: 6286
Location: New York
Number of Birds Owned: 3
Types of Birds Owned: Senegal Parrot, Cape Parrot, Green-Winged Macaw
Flight: Yes

Re: Flight Recall Still Unreliable

Postby PRD » Sat Mar 13, 2010 3:07 pm

I am a bit surprised to see the recall reliability after seeing some of your video's, i would suspect it to be higher.
I started to train my sun conure cause i noticed that he used to visit me the most of my 3 birds during the day. Everytime i went to take a walnut to give to them he used to come and sit on my hands and disturb me from getting the walnuts. So i put him on the cage and told him to sit(not to come to me) and i would reward him for this. When i read articles about flight training i wanted to see if he would sit on his cage and fly to me when commanded, and he did. So from that point i started to work with him, about 1.5 months ago. I dont have trainingssessions everyday, but i use the commands daily to call him for instance when he has to go inside his cage, or to fly off me when im eating my bread.
I usually start in the late morning/early afternoon if i train him, when he has time and leaves his flock to visit me. I'll do some 'fly to me' and 'fly off/away from me', 'fly to me when i am around the corner'. We are still working on the last 1. I also command him to fly to me randomly during the day when for instance he is flocking. If somewhere later during the day he flies to me for something, when he flies back to flock i will call him immediately to see if he will return. I get the impression that he really likes it when we are busy training, he acts anxious.
I would say my recall reliability is during training around 98% at least. My random recall reliability would be above 90% somewhere. He wont come all the time after my first call, but most of the time he will. During my trainingsessions i dont see less willingness to come, the reliability would be about the same. In my random calls i see some unreliability. I have noticed that if he is scared by a noise or something else from outside or an alarmcall from 1 of his mates, he wont always come.
I also noticed that since we started training he comes to me more often without me calling him, but also flocks alot.
My other birds also come to me more often now i train my sunny. Not only cause they get rewarded, but also to come and sit on my shoulders and relax/clean their feathers especially before they go to sleep.
Next time when i am free from work ill count the recalls and post them here.
Flock off!!
User avatar
PRD
Lovebird
 
Gender: This parrot forum member is male
Posts: 37
Number of Birds Owned: 3
Types of Birds Owned: Green cheek conure
Brown throat conure
Sun conure
Flight: Yes

Re: Flight Recall Still Unreliable

Postby CheekyandMalolo » Sun Jun 06, 2010 10:30 pm

Michael how long have you had Kili for? How old is she? To me it just sounds like sometimes she doesn't want to be with you. Perhaps she just needs to bond to you more?? When she doesn't come to you, can you 'punish' her somehow? Obviously not physically, I just mean seperate yourself from her. If she doesn't want to come to you, then pretty much say ok then, stay away, she may get to the point where she's wanting you to ask her to come.
When she's playing in a tree, she's likely just having a ball and doing something new, but inside, she might just not want to be with you right at that time and doesn't want the treat either.
In horses we call it join up, and I use it a lot to catch my horse who's an absolute bugger to catch.
Just a thought I had,
Aurora - Yellow Sided Green Cheek Conure
o'Tika - Pineapple Green Cheek Conure
Malolo - Cinnamon Pied Cockatiel
Tim - Red Wing Parrot
Prince - Blue Princess Parrot
Cheeky - Green Cheek Conure(RIP)
User avatar
CheekyandMalolo
Poicephalus
 
Gender: This parrot forum member is female
Posts: 294
Number of Birds Owned: 6
Types of Birds Owned: Cockatiel x 2
Princess Parrot
Red Wing Parrot
Yellow Sided GCC
Pineapple GCC
Flight: Yes

Re: Flight Recall Still Unreliable

Postby Michael » Sun Jun 06, 2010 10:38 pm

Are you kidding me? When we aren't training I can't keep her off of me and then when I need her to come, she won't come. I've definitely improved reliability since the original post but I still have difficulty managing motivation. There are times she wants to be on me and times she doesn't. The problem is I don't know how to control those times and sometimes I need her to fly to me when she isn't in the mood to be on me. Food management plays a role but isn't the only thing. Clearly there are times she is stuffed and still wants to recall and other times when she is hungry and won't come. I still have much to figure out. In my variable ratio reinforcement experiments, I've had days with near perfect recall results and others with terrible ones. Most other variables were even. I'm still trying to figure out that missing piece that determines parrot training motivation.

Also, don't forget I'm not just trying to get her to come to me once. I'm training her so it happens many times in a session. Some days I can do 70 recalls for a mere 7 treats and then other days I can barely get 10 out of her. She will just sit there and stare at me. Leaving and coming back, ignoring, putting away to cage, all these things don't change the fact she doesn't want to come that day. And as I said mild hunger doesn't affect this. I try to stay away from using strong hunger. I'm still trying to figure out how to motivate her without relying on hunger at all.
User avatar
Michael
Macaw
 
Gender: This parrot forum member is male
Posts: 6286
Location: New York
Number of Birds Owned: 3
Types of Birds Owned: Senegal Parrot, Cape Parrot, Green-Winged Macaw
Flight: Yes

Re: Flight Recall Still Unreliable

Postby cockatielfan » Mon Mar 14, 2011 7:27 am

are cockatiels hard to train?


Tippy :greycockatiel:
User avatar
cockatielfan
Parakeet
 
Gender: This parrot forum member is male
Posts: 2
Number of Birds Owned: 1
Types of Birds Owned: cockatiel
Flight: Yes

Next

Return to Recall Flight & Flighted Tricks

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 11 guests

Parrot ForumArticles IndexTraining Step UpParrot Training BlogPoicephalus Parrot InformationParrot Wizard Store