Michael wrote:I remember when you just joined the forum, you complained that scooter was troublesome to put away. Wasn't it for the exact same reasons as in this case? Except that since he was clipped it was easier for you to force him back into cage without realizing that this was the cause of the nippiness prior to going back?
I would not have said I was "complaining" more that I wasn't quite sure how to address the issue; I took the point that his nippiness was saying "I'd rather stay out" and I did use the principle that I needed to make going back more rewarding. I rarely actually forced him, and he was in general much nippier at that time and would nip as soon as he realized I was going to ASK him to go back. I don't think I've ever just grabbed him and plopped him in there -- about the farthest I go is tipping him toward the perch so it is easier to step onto it than not. I also discovered somewhere along the way that he's much more comfortable going back to a higher perch than a lower one, which also helped. He's never been shy about being handled, so holding him has never represented a negative other than to the extent he might rather be doing something else at a given moment. It would probably be different if he weren't VERY tame from the get-go.
I don't know if it is THAT much easier to "force" a clipped bird, really. If the bird is loose and you can't catch him, that's one thing, but once you have both hands on your bird (assuming it's not a Hyacinth macaw or something really huge) I think you can "force" a flighted bird just as easily as a clipped one, by physically holding the wings or using a towel. And in either case, you'd only do it out of necessity -- there are times when you just plain have to get the job done, but I think it is our job to minimize those. One of the things I wish I had more practice with, actually, is emergency restraint and capture techniques. I'm reluctant to practice because it does involve force, but the day will come when someone is injured and I need to at least force the issue enough to inspect the damage and get into the carrier for the vet without delay if needed.
This is a little OT, but I think when you operate with the philosophy that the bird has choice and has the option to say "No", you have to accept that at some point the bird might, in fact, actually choose not to do what you are requesting. No matter how appealing you've made the right answer, it is possible for something else to be even more appealing. At that moment you have to deal with the ramifications of granting choice -- in some cases that means you don't get to do what you want (e.g. the bird stays in his cage instead of coming out) or it means the bird doesn't get to do what it wants -- and then you are facing coercion of some sort, the degree depending on necessity.
I also think is is quite possible for a parrot to be naughty and to decide not to do something it understands is expected. This has to be carefully distinguished from not doing a thing because they don't understand or are afraid or uncomfortable. But if it is really a willful act (and do we agree they are smart enough to be willful in the same way a very small child might?), at that point you either have to try to make the expected response even more rewarding than ever before, let the bird "get away with it" or take some sort of action to discourage the misbehavior.
I guess if I were the OP and I thought my bird had simply decided that it is clever to avoid going home, in addition to making the cage more rewarding, I might also restrain him gently long enough to get my hand into the cage door to ask for a step down, the successful completion of which to be amply rewarded. Yes, this is a degree of "force" but getting out of doing something by flying away seems like a bad lesson to reinforce, too. And I think even a flighted bird could do what Scotty fairly often does, which is to attempt to refuse to step up away from a fascinating location or object. He will display with beak banging and not acknowledge the "Step up" command, but so far w have always been able to prevail by persisting in asking and not being intimidated by the apparent refusal. The subsequent obedience, we reward, but the first line of defense is responding to "NO I won't" with "Yes, do this thing". It becomes almost negative reinforcement.
Is it the general consensus that obedience is not to be required?