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Shocking

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Shocking

Postby KC Cameron » Mon Dec 02, 2013 11:34 pm

I occasionally (every 3-6 months) find my GW feeling her oats and tries to have dominant behavior. In the wild parrots bite each other to demonstrate dominance, so I thought I would try it on my GW.

Needless to say, she wasn't happy, but she immediately became docile and friendly and stayed that way. That was 12 years ago.

Now I don't bite hard - just enough so she can feel my teeth - not so it hurts. I bite her on the wing or foot. It always works like a charm.

Now I know most people would never get their head close enough to a parrot acting out . . . much less biting them . . . but does anyone else do this?

Please understand my GW is a very good bird, and this makes her better on those very few days she is a bit out of sorts and more than a bit grumpy. I try to avoid an issue when she is a little aggressive, but I can't always do it since she is a working bird.

I would not do it with most parrots, and only with one I have a very close relationship.
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Re: Shocking

Postby marie83 » Tue Dec 03, 2013 12:53 pm

No I havent and I wouldnt. Its very unecessary in my opinion when parrots can be taught in much kinder ways. I also dont believe in the term dominance - not in parrots at any rate, they do not use it in the way that a dog would for example. I think we often make mistakes in understanding their behaviour.
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Re: Shocking

Postby Wayne361 » Tue Dec 03, 2013 5:50 pm

KC Cameron wrote:I occasionally (every 3-6 months) find my GW feeling her oats and tries to have dominant behavior. In the wild parrots bite each other to demonstrate dominance, so I thought I would try it on my GW.

Needless to say, she wasn't happy, but she immediately became docile and friendly and stayed that way. That was 12 years ago.

Now I don't bite hard - just enough so she can feel my teeth - not so it hurts. I bite her on the wing or foot. It always works like a charm.

Now I know most people would never get their head close enough to a parrot acting out . . . much less biting them . . . but does anyone else do this?

Please understand my GW is a very good bird, and this makes her better on those very few days she is a bit out of sorts and more than a bit grumpy. I try to avoid an issue when she is a little aggressive, but I can't always do it since she is a working bird.

I would not do it with most parrots, and only with one I have a very close relationship.


Dude that's just weird. Sorry.... Not trying to be an ass but if the bird bit you back could you blame it.....

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Re: Shocking

Postby KC Cameron » Tue Dec 03, 2013 6:42 pm

marie83 -

"I also dont believe in the term dominance - not in parrots at any rate"

Well, all I can say is belief is belief. Dominance exists in most, if not all higher life forms. Domanance and dominating are two different things. In EVERY relationship, one is dominant. Sometimes it changes back and forth, but one is always dominant. With humans it can be one who has political or legal authority, it can be intelligence or brute strength, height or size. It can be perceived knowledge, accolades, it can be sexual (male vs female), relationship position (parent vs child) and on and on. It can be forced, or accepted. It can be kind or cruel.

I would also like to clarify there is a world of difference between "dominance" and the old-school idea of training through "domineering" (or bullying). While I believe strongly in positive reinforcement, distraction, and avoidance - sometime a well thought out "negative" (in the absence of anger) is very helpful. We should use all the tools we have in a loving manner.

As for my action not being kind . . . the parrot is not being hurt in any way. She is not scared. If she was, she would bite or try to flee and never trust me. She obviously does trust me and is not scared of me. (see avatar photo) I am speaking her language.

Parrots bite each other for a variety of reasons - one is for dominance. My GW is not cowered. My fingers are in her mouth many times every day. She could take a chunk out of me anytime. She doesn't, partly because she knows I won't hurt her. She is not scared of me, and she knows I'm dominant in our relationship. She will sometimes nip a little harder than usual when she sees a hawk or is nervous about something. It is how parrots communicate. Otherwise, when she nips a little harder than unusual, she is just pushing the boundaries, like a child with her parents. My "bite" not only reminds her of her place, and I believe, in the end, it comforts her like disciplining a child who pushes her boundaries - they know someone else can handle things so they can relax.

Anyone who has had chickens, or a bird feeder next to their window sees birds showing dominance every day. If two birds fight or "squirmish" as they do regularly at my feeder, that is dominance. Those that wait until another bird leaves are accepting (for the moment) dominance.

The last time my GW bit me with more than a little force has been probably 11 years, and she is handled a lot every day. She has bitten my wife a couple times, once broke the skin a little. I believe that was hormonal. Can you say that with your GCC or Cockatiel??

In this reply, I am showing dominance (from experience) to you in this matter. Should you rebut me, you would be challenging my dominance in this matter.

I believe you should re-think your belief that there is no dominance in parrots. Maybe watch a few documentaries with this in mind. It is everywhere.

I JUST NOTICED ON A WEANING THREAD YOU SAID THIS
"... and they should be with their clutch mates, playing, learning to sort disputes or form heirachies..."

. . . so it appears that at one time you DID believe in dominance in parrots and hopefully this is just semantics.


~~~~

Wayne361 -
Weird, sure. It is not natural action for (most) humans! When interacting with my parrot I need to understand her communication, not expect her to understand mine. The fact she does not bite me says a lot doesn't it??

On the flip side, if she bit me, can you blame me for biting back?? ( Just speaking the same language!) *G* Of course my relationship to Jax, my GW, is different than her relationship with me.
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Re: Shocking

Postby Wayne361 » Wed Dec 04, 2013 3:53 pm

I am open to learning new methods of training. Never heard of the biting thing before (human to bird that is). I am sure there are other ways of addressing dominance rather than biting the bird. Hey...if it works for you and you are ok with it. Just not a methodology I would espouse as there are many many different training exercises/behaviour modification techniques that dont involve biting a bird and would yield the results you are looking for.
Human saliva also has potential health consequences in terms of your birds health....

Wayne
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Re: Shocking

Postby KC Cameron » Wed Dec 04, 2013 4:42 pm

Yes, well it is direct, in a language she fully understands, the change is immediate and long lasting, and she is in a good mood afterwards. I don't advocate doing it often - one bite every 3-6 months, often longer for me.

I would not do it to a scared parrot either, nor a small parrot. In my interaction with Jax (GW) she is always using her beak and tongue to communicate and explore. We have a very good and long relationship. I certainly would never do it with a parrot that was new or with whom I did not have a good relationship.

I am coming to a place where duplicating the natural social and dietary environment is important. I think too often we try to bend a parrot into our likeness because it is easier then bending ourselves to understand their nature. With mine, in many ways I've missed that boat. . . . Well, so much for the deep mystical poop!

Right now we are finishing linking a Basketball, "give me 5" (or 4 in her case) and a winners dance! Pretty cute and very "natural" *L*!
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Re: Shocking

Postby marie83 » Wed Dec 11, 2013 8:20 pm

Wow, that's quite an essay, yes I took your initial message to mean dominance in the forceful type of way rather than as in a dominant trait and that is why you got the response from me that you did as biting to me, no matter how gently is using some level of force. I clearly stated that I don't believe in dominance in a certain way by using dogs as an example, not that it didn't exist at all.

You are correct, I did believe in hierarchies, height dominance etc. The one thing this forum has done is to encourage me to study and reinterpret the behaviour of my own birds but by all means I am no expert or anything close to it. Of course birds will chase other birds away from a food source if they are hungry, after all its survival of the fittest but imo that's not "domineering" dominance.
I've changed my mind about many many things through research, the opinion of others and learning as I go- hell I don't even believe birds (or indeed most animals but I wont go in to all that here, my opinions can be found elsewhere) should be bred for the pet trade any longer but only a few years ago I never gave it a second thought.

Actually maybe I have been lucky with my birds but there is only my little green cheek out of 23+ birds that's given me any problems with biting, I went from getting several bites a day to one very rarely but in all honesty with his nature I think if I had implemented your method then I would have got given some pretty aggressive behaviour back in return- Ollie is no pushover and pretty much impossible to intimidate. Prior to that I've only had one 'tiel bite me and that was when I was trying to medicate a really untame bird due to bad handling on my part as I hadn't got hold of him properly and of course he was terrified.
I would also like to add that if your listening to the birds language they wont feel the need to bite in the majority of instances, therefore there's no need to be in the situation you feel the need to retaliate (even if it isn't a true retaliation). The thing with Ollie was I just didn't understand his little quirks when I first got him as his body language was so different to my chilled out peach fronted conure. I had a lot of time to spend with him working on it, perhaps your career does not allow you the time to take your time over such things?

This also goes a long with the "bite a dogs ear if it misbehaves" mentality- I see it as one and the same, just involving different species. Most younger people would not recommend biting a dogs ear in this day and age so why do it with a parrot? Like I said though I see it as unnecessary when there are other methods, I'm not saying your method doesn't work, also I've never had the experience of a macaw sized bird trying to take a chunk out of me so I wouldn't like to comment on that either really but I still don't think that would tempt me to try tbh.

Apologies if I have misunderstood any of the points you made, missed anything or haven't explained my opinions properly as I only read your reply very quickly and I don't have much time to write detailed posts these days.
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Re: Shocking

Postby rebcart » Tue Dec 17, 2013 1:27 am

I think although you acknowledge that you're using punishment methods, where you're tripping up is that you're giving them more philosophical meaning than they deserve (in terms of thinking that any individual action somehow fits into a larger construct of dominance that persists across time and space and types of interactions). If you haven't seen the following articles by well-regarded professionals in the bird world, you may be interested in giving them a read.

http://www.behaviorworks.org/files/arti ... 202001.pdf
http://www.naturalencounters.com/images ... Martin.pdf
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Re: Shocking

Postby conurelover » Fri Jan 03, 2014 4:21 am

I totally agree with you!! Dominance is in EVERYTHING! I had to battle with my own parrot and took me several diff methods to work...yah forceful...yah a bit harsh I guess (to each his/her own) BUT guess what??? she does NOT bite =D She is more cuddly and I love her more than ever!

HOWEVER I haven't "BIT" a parrot hahahaha
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Re: Shocking

Postby cml » Fri Jan 03, 2014 11:10 am

conurelover wrote:I totally agree with you!! Dominance is in EVERYTHING! I had to battle with my own parrot and took me several diff methods to work...yah forceful...yah a bit harsh I guess (to each his/her own) BUT guess what??? she does NOT bite =D She is more cuddly and I love her more than ever!

HOWEVER I haven't "BIT" a parrot hahahaha

Welcome to the forum conurelover! Did you get the chance to read the PDF:s that rebcart linked above? Food for thought perhaps :)?
Stitch (WFA) and Leroy (BWP)
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