Adverse Effects Of Clicker Training

[Michael]

For over a year of training Kili pretty much exclusively using a clicker, I have finally run into a limitation of clicker training. The problem is that Kili will refuse to recall or do tricks if I am not holding the clicker. She is very good about going into "training mode" when I put the clicker in my hand and will do a spectacular job on everything, however, if I do not have a clicker she will often ignore my cues. Another problem is that I generally train Kili during the same time range so asking her to fly to me without a clicker at some other time of the day and you can forget it.

However, counteracting this is not that difficult. I can simply use the methodology of clicker training without the clicker. First off, for 90% of the time, the fact that Kili switches into training/obeying on sight of clicker is very good for me and it makes training new tricks easier. I just need to teach her to recall when I am not holding a clicker or treat. So for a significant portion or recent training sessions I have been practicing tricks without a clicker and also sitting on my couch recalling her. Up until now she would never recall to me sitting there cause I'd never have treats for her. Usually I'd call her over so I could pet her but I guess she didn't care. There are times when I can't keep her off of me sitting there and other times when she refuses to come. So what I did was hide treats near the couch and keep calling her till she'd recall and immediately reward. Then she'd realize this is worth doing and for the remainder of the session continue to recall during which I would establish a variable ratio of reinforcement. I am also going to try to mix up training schedules and train her at different times.

This also comes into play with Kathleen training Kili. Whoever holds the clicker in their hand, Kili will respond to. Once again, very useful for introducing new people/trainers to Kili. But the downside is that when Kathleen is not holding a clicker, Kili will bite and not respond to cues. This is also why Kathleen and I have been mixing in more non-clicker training. Now by no means am I saying that clickers are bad or shouldn't be used. I think it is 90% good and 10% bad. I am reacting to the situation and counterconditioning her dependence on the presence of a clicker in order to obey cues. For my next parrot I will randomly train without a clicker 10% of the time as I train it to avoid this over dependence on a clicker and maintain a respect for cues regardless of the visibility of a clicker. Another "training cue" is the visual presence of the treat. That can also be a problem whether or not you use a clicker. The parrot may refuse to do a trick if you are not holding a treat. To avoid this issue, once again, hide the treat and grab it out at the last moment to reward and thus practice some of the time with no visible treats. Variable ratio reinforcement also helps to some extent.

[MandyG]

For my next parrot I will randomly train without a clicker 10% of the time as I train it to avoid this over dependence on a clicker and maintain a respect for cues regardless of the visibility of a clicker. Another "training cue" is the visual presence of the treat. That can also be a problem whether or not you use a clicker. The parrot may refuse to do a trick if you are not holding a treat. To avoid this issue, once again, hide the treat and grab it out at the last moment to reward and thus practice some of the time with no visible treats. Variable ratio reinforcement also helps to some extent.

This is very good information! I'm surprised it hasn't come up before. This is basically the way that I've trained Mojo. I find it much easier to train new tricks using the clicker because I find the communication between us to be a lot more clear, but when practicing tricks that are already known I don't use the clicker very often. I also use the varibable ratio reinforcement when doing recalls, and the majority of the time once he has flown to me on cue I'll say 'good' and walk across the room to where his treats are to reward him.

I came across the clicker and treat dependance when I started training dogs. You need to be able to have a dog that listens to you regardless if you're holding treats or not. The same goes for a parrot.

Great topic!

[Kathleen]

Lately, I've been going to her cage with just the glove on, a treat, and no clicker and she has been stepping up lately just fine without it and without biting the glove. Sometimes I forget a treat and she still does it, but then I give her a treat for stepping up another time (from her gram scale or from another perch). So she always has to step up without biting if she wants to come out or she will just go back in. She always wants to come out at that time because she doesn't like to poop in her cage. She waits and holds it until she can go to a perch outside of her cage. She likes to fly around and land on her different perches after that.

[Frederica]

Hallo Michael,
there are two possible solutions:
First, do not let the bird see the clicker.
Even though my budgies are clocker trained, the do not know that "that box" produces the click, the clicker is hardy visible for them during traingn session (and they concentrate on something else!).

Then therer is the method of tapering the clicker or other aids like the TS fpr step-up etc.
That ist, iusing the clicekr only every second, then third etc.time, then randomly and finally only exceprionally as a special surprose for the bird.

Do you know "Reaching the animal mind" by Karen Pryor?
I think this is explained there.
BTW:
If you google "reaching the animal mind" in one word youi get support materail for that book, among other ressources a great video about a clicker trained fish and its feelings when the "click" does not come forward as expected!

Best,
Frderica

[Michael]

It's not the end of the world and as I said it also carries a benefit. Anyone can pick up a clicker and be respected as a trainer by the parrot. The only downside is she gets lazy without it. I could outcondition this from her if I really tried by having more training sessions without a clicker.

[Michael]

It's not the end of the world and as I said it also carries a benefit. Anyone can pick up a clicker and be respected as a trainer by the parrot. The only downside is she gets lazy without it. I could outcondition this from her if I really tried by having more training sessions without a clicker.

[CheekyandMalolo]

She is very good about going into "training mode" when I put the clicker in my hand and will do a spectacular job on everything, however, if I do not have a clicker she will often ignore my cues. Another problem is that I generally train Kili during the same time range so asking her to fly to me without a clicker at some other time of the day and you can forget it.

I've done a lot more training with my horse than I have with my birds, and really, if my horse doesn't do something unless I'm holding a reward for him, you just put in the hard yards and train him to do it just because you asked, not because you'll give him a treat. I don't take crap from my horse and I don't crap from my birds when I ask them to step up or go in their cage or whatever.
Maybe you need to just work with Kili to do what you ask when you ask cause you asked. Practice at different times of the day, give her a scratch instead of a click.
Kili sounds amazing, i can only hope that my baby GCC learns some tricks as well as she has, but with this, i think she's just being a little bratty.

[Michael]

Sure as hell doesn't work that way when you are trying to recall your parrot from some place you cannot reach. Believe me, it's not that simple.

[CheekyandMalolo]

I never said it was simple. I was talking more about persistence.
I have a horse who on occasion decides he's not going to be caught, which is all kinds of fun when he lives in a 70 acre paddock. But sometimes it just takes persistence from me because if you give up that day he won't let you catch him the next.
I never said anything about it being simple at all, and I'm sorry if that's how it came across cause that's not what I meant.

[skeetersunconure]

with skeeter sometimes we train with or without clickers so that is not a problem my problem is that he wont play dead when other people are in the room and he wont play dead in other places... he also wont wave unless he has his perch its sortof frustrating