Your views on clipping wings?

[Dodes151]

Clipping can lead to permanent feather damage and/or mental retardation (particularly when done during the first year) so don't let anyone bullshit you that it's just a haircut and harmless. I know first hand from my Senegal that came clipped vs my Cape that never was.

I've never heard of or experienced either of these claims. Does anyone here know of any pictures or videos online of birds with permanently damaged wing feathers due to clipping? And I'm really straining my brain trying to grasp how wing clipping can cause brain damage. Michael, I'm new here, so forgive me if you've already done so, but could you explain the brain damage claim? Thanks.

[marie83]

Michael did not say it causes brain damage per see but retardation. It affects their emotional development which can cause behavioural problems. Emotions are controlled by the brain. Imagine if you became disabled overnight, can you imagine the sheer frustration, anger and vulnerability you would feel to begin with? People can get over these feelings with therapy, we cannot give a bird counselling, CBT etc.
Of course some people believe that birds cannot feel emotions but I totally disagree with that theory.

[Michael]

Yeah. I disagree. But it is apparent much more directly that wing clipping causes mental retardation. Baby birds learn to fly quickly and well. If clipped and later re-fledged they cannot learn to fly with the same skills. Furthermore it handicaps a bird's learning capacity for complex skills such as understanding object permanence, windows, mirrors, etc.

I see this first hand between my Cape Parrot who was never clipped and my Senegal Parrot that was clipped once. He can "think on the fly" much better, do 180 turns, fly complicated maneuvers. And even then he'd be considered to be a seriously retarded flier compared to an outdoor freeflighted parrot. My Senegal has gotten better with years of practice but still cannot fly as well.

Furthermore my Senegal has permanent feather damage because of clipping. Here's a photo the shows missing primaries that never grew back. There have been others in the past who have posted photos of birds with similar problems on this forum in the past.

[Dodes151]

Mental retardation. That's what I meant. Sorry. And I have become disabled overnight. I had to get a full hip replacement back in February, this year. Eventually I did get a bit frustrated after not being able to work for two months, but I never felt the slightest bit of mental retardation come about. If I was a toddler or an infant, and not a 31 year old man, things might be a bit different, I'll admit, but I don't think the result would be mental retardation... I know many people (family included) that have had very traumatic medical procedures performed on them at an age where they didn't know, understand, or were able to grant permission on the matter. Fortunately, none of them ended up becoming mentally retarded.
Anyway, I will have a metal hip for the rest of my life. It will never function as well as my natural hip, and I'm expected to have another surgery in the next 15-20 years when this hunk of metal fails me. Unlike most birds, psittacines molt continually, and will grow brand new feathers in 2-6 weeks regardless of whether or not their wings have been clipped. And I've never gone to counseling for my temporary disability. I've never felt a need for it. I don't pretend to know what a parrot is thinking all of the time, but I can make educated guesses based on my experience. And I have seen plenty of hookbills with psychological issues, but none that I can trace back to having their wings clipped.
And I am 100% convinced that MANY birds feel very complex emotions. Especially more intelligent families like parrots, corvids, and ramphastids.

[Dodes151]

Michael, I can understand why you'd feel the way you do about wing clipping after your experiences with your Senegal, and I do sincerely feel sorry for your bird. But it sounds like there are MANY potential variables that may have affected your senegal's behavior. Hell, they're two different species! Ask any breeder how much variation commonly occurs between clutch mates of the same species... It can be jarring! They really do have individual personalities regardless of external stimuli. I'm not saying, "You're wrong, I'm right!", but I definitely think there's a large chance that it could be any number of different reasons.
And I hope whoever "clipped" your senegal's wing no longer works with parrots. That was a butcher-job, and not a wing clip. Did they cut follicles or blood feathers? I don't understand...

[marie83]

2-6 weeks to regrow feathers? not sure where you heard that one, maybe once the feather has actually started the growth process but most birds take around 2 years to go through a full moulting cycle. Not to mention there is a high risk of broken blood feathers and fully grown feathers due to the lack of supporting feathers. Retardation comes in different forms too, some apparent, some less apparent. As Michael said above the difference between a bird which is allowed to fledge naturally compared with an older bird trying to learn to fly is astounding. I've never had a clipped bird but have had cage bound ones before I took them in. There is no doubt in my mind that these birds are retarded both physically and emotionally, Harlie especially was a complete nut before she learned her ability to fly (albeit her flight is terrible even after a year+ of practice) but she has come on leaps and bounds since then.

[Dodes151]

I didn't "hear it" anywhere. I experience it constantly. But if you'd like a source, try any book on psittacines. (Birdtalk magazine doesn't count).
Yes, birds that haven't flown their whole lives will not fly as well as birds that have. I agree. But I don't agree that any parrot that doesn't experience regular flight automatically has a retarded and pathetic existence. Parrots are lazy when compared to most other flighted birds. Flight is almost always a last resort. That's because it's expensive. These birds are hard wired to conserve as much energy as possible. That's one of the reasons their beak evolved into a third appendage. Look at the Kakapo. If parrots "flew for the fun of it", that species would not exist as we know it.

[marie83]

As I said that timeframe is much more likely to be the growth of the feather. I have never heard of any bird growing out a clip in 6 weeks. I also suggest you look up the word retarded in the dictionary. Nobody is suggesting they sit on their perches with their wings over their faces rocking. As for the kakapoo they have evolved to be flightless because they didn't need to fly to survive. This means their body and instincts are adapted to walking. Sadly their lack of flight is now killing them due to human interference as they cannot evolve fast enough. As for flighted species they are not lazy in the wild. They can fly for miles a day looking for food and nesting sites. Just because they spend the majority of their time in trees does not mean a thing really

[Ardeotis]

Actually Michael is the one that needs to look up what "retarded" means as Dodes was taking the phrase "mentally retarded" directly from him. Wing clipping does NOT cause permanent damage unless it's done incorrectly and if so that person should not be working with birds. It also does NOT cause mental retardation or psychological damage or whatever you want to call it. I work with dozens of clipped birds (most of those birds aren't even parrots!) and they are perfectly fine mentally. There are so many reasons to clip a bird or to not clip a bird. It's a personal choice and to say that clipping your bird (or any bird) means you don't care about it is ludicrous. Also recommending a brand new parrot owner not to clip wings is just plain bad advice. They may decide later to let the wings regrow, but a person who has NO experience should not have a flighted bird.

[Dodes151]

I'm not used to people throwing around the word "retarded" when talking about parrots. Honestly, I think it's a bit insensitive to do so regardless of the context. The kakaPO (not poo) is critically endangered because of introduced predators like cats and opossums. Man certainly has had an effect on their population in the past (killing them for meat and hats), but it was the non-human predators that really did them in. And they lost their ability to fly because of the initial LACK of predators. Meaning, there was not a need to fly, so fly they did not. So, clearly, when given the option, they chose NOT to fly. Like MOST parrots will every single time. Parrots ARE lazy compared to other families. That's not a slight against them, it's a survival instinct. Those cockatoos or budgies or macaws would not fly miles a day if they didn't have to. That is a guarantee. "Spending time in trees" was never a factor. I never mentioned it.
Look, believe what you like in regards to wing clipping. If you're in a situation where you are justified to take the many potential risks that come with having a fully flighted bird, then by all means. But I have a problem when all I see on this forum is people getting blasted for doing what they feel is best for their bird. And I've seen Michael's videos. I've shown them off in the past! I think he's done an awesome job with his birds. But I don't believe he's a god, and I won't take advice blindly from anyone. I don't think the average parrot owner should keep their birds flighted. It is dangerous. I've owned parrots my entire life. I've worked with them professionally for over a decade. I've seen parrots DIE because they were not properly clipped. I've seen others fly away, never to return. I'm sure they wanted to, but a native accipiter had other plans for them. I've seen them have doors slammed on them, break mandibles, hit ceiling fans, etc. You can make the argument that some of those situations could have been avoided, but shit happens. To everyone. You are not excluded from Murphy's law.
In my own experience, I've never known of a bird that's taken physical or psychological damage (or "retardation") from wing clips. Many of the claims ive read on this forum about the subject seemto be based on presumptions, inexperience, and wishful thinking. I could be wrong. And again, they're your birds. Do what you will to them. But don't insult others for having a different opinion.