Your views on clipping wings?

[Michael]

Keeping flighted parrots is easy. It's keeping parrots that is hard.

[pennyandrocky]

my parrots are definitely not lazy at all. a lot of their 12 hours free of cages is spent flying around the house. in the 20 years I've had fully flighted parrots I've had zero injuries. my avian vet says my birds are his healthiest patients and wished all of the birds he sees were as well cared for as mine. in my former home with my cousin his clipped companion was ripped apart by my uncles 2 dogs.

[Polarn]

Personally, I would never clip a bird, sure not all birds are able to fly and some fly better than others I keep chickens and they are really poor flyers and well.. I wouldnt call it flying... still though I do not clip them even if their able to create some lift.

But as for the parrots we keep as companions most of them are able to fly and will fly, especially if they has always been able too. And seeing them fly is a highlight of any day. Especially when taking them somewhere they truly has the room to do big loops and fly a bit higher, I'm a frequent visitor at indoor freeflight events and such. My brownheaded is a bit lazy and spend most of his time using me as means of transportation when at these events, but every now and then he does take off to show off his flying skills.

personally, I do judge people who clips. just as I judge people who choose to tie lines between the legs on horses to "shape" their steps in order to walk the correct way, or weight em down with sandbags to prevent em from throwing you off. I would judge someone who desided to tie the hind legs of his dog together to prevent it from running away and prefers that over using a leech. The horse can move with the lines around his legs but it is restricted for the single purpouse of changing its way of taking a step (the same result can be achived with proper training) a dog with its hind legs tied could still go out for a walk with you, but I doubt it would prefer that to a leech, just as i doubt my birds would prefer climbing down their playstand to the floor to walk over to the next room to then climb up the second playstand.. if they would prefer that they wouldn't be flying back and forth everytime they feel like getting onto something else... putting retardation and longterm damage out of the equation, flying is still a natural thing and I think there is an extremely small number of birds that has always been allowed flight that would not fly. To me it is cruel to remove the primary means of transportation, undiskussably forcing them to use the second mean. And I am not speaking about what they learn first but what they use the most, because I am well aware of the fact that they learn to walk before they fly.. but we learn to crawl before we walk, and you doesnt see to many people walking on all 4 across town simply because they prefer it...

So yeah I do judge people that clip, however I do judge fellow swedes who clips more than an American for example, simply because here most of the "they do not take any harm from clipping" attitude is gone, weather the claim is correct or not, and the norm here is to not clip your birds and there is a sense of shame attatched to clipping birds, wich means that 98% of the parrots you meet is flighted, something that makes me judge the 2% owners who does clip even more, simply because they fail to see that the rest of all parronts successfully manages flighted birds and they are not in any way harder to manage, more prone to spend time away from you, less cuddly or anything else that could be a reason not to clip your bird.

So to me clipping is basically a lazy way to keep control of your bird, or an uneducated thing to do simply because you think it will be so much easier to tame or train it, everyone else succeeds, why shouldnt you?

And why would you get a flighted bird as companion if you do not like the flight, pretty much the same as getting a dog but not liking the wagging tail, so you remove it...

[spiral71]

i would never clip a bird i own, its not natural birds need to fly,

[Eric&Rebecca]

There's several avian vet articles that explore 'psychological issues' caused by clipping. Conclusions were that birds, even certain species, have fragile brain chemistries that don't respond well to being clipped due to frustrations of not being able to fly. I've yet to find any academic/ scientific articles written by Avian vets or the such that tell me that clipping is of benefit. Maybe we are wrong a clipping doesn't cause any harm as such but does that mean its OK?

The way I look at it is very simple;

Is a bird supposed to fly?- Yes
Would I do the equivalent of clipping to another animal?- No
Does it keep my bird safer?- No
Does it make a bird more tame?- No
Does it help my bird in any way health wise?- No

So why clip then? That's just the

[pionus]

I would like to here the reasons FOR clipping wings, because i can't find any.

[Raque]

You people are being to pedantic.

Copied from google's definitions:
re·tard·ed
riˈtärdid
adjective
adjective: retarded
1. less advanced in mental, physical, or social development than is usual for one's age.

It does not mean stupid or brain damaged, it means less developed. The common abuse of this word when used as an insult should not change what it means.

By definition, if it is normal for a parrot to have learned both the mental and physical aspect of flying then a parrot who is not able to do those things is retarded both mentally and physically.

Michael clearly feels his Senegal Parrot's ability to fly is less developed compared to parrot who has always flown.....or.....Michael clearly feels his Senegal Parrot's ability to fly is retarded compared to parrot who has always flown. They mean the same thing.

Go back and re-read what Michael wrote and substitute "less developed" every time you see the word "retarded" and see if what he wrote still bothers you. I don't always agree with Michael but his usage here is correct.

----

My opinion:
Having a flying parrot is more work for the owner and takes more parrot proofing of the home to mitigate the additional safety risks of having a pet that can move in three dimensions.

I have never read anything that lead me to believe the parrot really benefited from clipping other then from safety issues (flying into a toilet, stove, window, ceiling fan; eating a cord or plastic bead; easier to escape) from an owner unwilling to mitigate the safety risks.

Then it becomes two ethical questions:
1) Should an owner who is unwilling to mitigate safety risks for a pet really own that pet?
and
2) Since mistakes always happen since no owner is perfect, and therefore not always able to mitigate all risks every time all the time, put their bird's safety at risk by not clipping?

People have to search their own morality to figure out their own answers to those questions.

For me: I want my Missy to be one of my best friends and therefore I want her to have a happy life. Is it going to make her happier to have a longer life where she never flies and therefore in more fear (since she can not escape things) and frustrated with lack of flight? or is she going to be happier being able to fly, trusting me to mitigate the safety risks for her, and understanding that I might screw up at some point which could cost Missy her life? I think it will make Missy happier to be able to fly and I need to do my best to never make my home a dangerous place for her.

[Dodes151]

Raque, I read your post while sucking off the butts of a few fags. And by that, I mean I was smoking cigarettes while reading your reply, and not involved in a homosexual oral orgy. I get it. Michael wasn't calling specific birds brain dead idiots. And he may have said that himself if others didn't insist on speaking for him. On your moral dilemma- valid points. Here's a third option, and possibly a permanent solution to this controversy; No pet parrots. Also, your second point is a double edged sword. Safety is the reason I prefer my parrots clipped. And as I've already stated, I've seen many more birds injured or killed due to NOT being clipped. If the free flight thing is working out for you, and you honestly think it's your bird, and not your ego, that is benefitting from it, then cool. Good for you. Make videos and send them to me. I'm not anti-flighted parrot. But I do think it should only be attempted by experienced bird owners, and not encouraged to the guy who "doesn't want a parrot, I want a MACAW".
Pionus, you haven't looked.
EricandRebecca, do you have a link to any of those articles? I'd love to read them (I'm not trying to be condescending. Honestly, I'd like to read them). The way I look at it: 1st one- most, but not all. 2nd- many of the "equivalents" referred to on this site are ridiculous. Feathers are made of keratin. Just like hair, hooves and fingernails. Once the feather is fully formed, and the blood supply is gone, it IS a nerveless protein that has no feeling whatsoever. So, yes. I would trim overgrown claws, beaks, hooves, nails, hair...whatever. To claim that it is the same as cutting off a limb, or tying ropes to horse's legs (?) is not only silly, it's a lie. 3rd- that's going to be different for every person, and their living situation. Wing clipping definitely CAN be safer for many birds. 4th- in my experience, it can speed up initial taming. And I'm in a field where I can be pressured to tame birds fast. If its a pet, again, I think it can be different depending on the situation. 5th- it's possible. Depends on the situation. I don't keep vats of acid up in my rafters, but if I did, I'd never let my birds fly. (if it's not obvious, I am trying to keep my response at least a little lighthearted).
Spiral71, neither is being in captivity.
Polarn, so I see that you have chickens... But it sounds like you have play gyms? For the chickens, or do you have parrots? And I was mainly referring to you above as far as the ridiculous "equivelants" go. And you judge the minority? Because they're the minority? If that's the type of person you are, then I could care less about your ignorant, dickheaded opinion. Even on chickens. Go F*** yourself.

[Polarn]

No I do not judge the minority because their a minority I judge them because they fail to see that it works for others to not clip their birds and since it is gone so far anti clipping that there are state recommendations at the moment recommending not to be clipping your birds and currently and has been for quite a while discussions on how to write up a law that restricts when you would be allowed to clip a bird. Also the same minority keeping clipped birds here is a majority when it comes to not having properly sized cages as well, especially with the larger birds where they can not even stretch their wings. And yeah I do have chickens and golden pheasants too as well as parrots. And while I do not have playtime for the chickens I do provide em with playful looking perches or full trees to sit in. And yes every now and then you do find a chicken perched in them.

There is a few macaws here that no longer is able to fly anymore at all after their wings has grown out. Now this inability has nothing todo really with them have had beeing clipped, but due to the mentality of their caretakers thinking since their bird can't fly due to being clipped neither does it need room to stretch their wings causing them to actually not being able to flap their wings without enduring pain from the skin not being able to stretch enough under their wings. So yeah I automatically judge someone that clips their birds around here because they quite often neglects the birds in other aspects too (sorry that came out as clipping is a form of neglection, wasn't ment like that) but yeah there is a prejudice bastard in me. Although stemming more from behaviors and chain of usual events rather than what a person looks like or their education etcetera. But then I think most people has a prejudice bastard in them somewhere. Either you judge people by how they look tattoos clothing etcetera etcetera or if they went to college or not etcetera etcetera.

[AmberH]

I just found out today that my breeder has clipped my baby's wings even though I asked that she didn't.

She said it is her rule now because she had 2 baby's fly out and get loose when she was feeding them and that several people called her after getting their flighted baby's telling her that they flew into a window and broke their necks or had other injuries.

I know they will grow back but I am pretty peeved that he will not get to do the fledgling steps like normal.

She has a good reputation as a breeder and had very tame and well behaved birds when we visited her so I dont doubt that she can raise a good bird.

I guess there are very different opinions about whether a bird should or should not be allowed to fly and people are either one extreme or the other.