Your views on clipping wings?

[janetafloat]

Polarn, so I see that you have chickens... But it sounds like you have play gyms? For the chickens, or do you have parrots? And I was mainly referring to you above as far as the ridiculous "equivelants" go. And you judge the minority? Because they're the minority? If that's the type of person you are, then I could care less about your ignorant, dickheaded opinion. Even on chickens. Go F*** yourself.

Wow. Talk about ignorant....

And personally I think that clipping parrot's wings will one day be looked on in horror in much the same way that we no longer think it's acceptable to cut bits off dogs or pull kitten's claws out - practices that have been considered perfectly acceptable for decades.

So, yes. I would trim overgrown claws, beaks, hooves, nails, hair...whatever. To claim that it is the same as cutting off a limb, or tying ropes to horse's legs (?) is not only silly, it's a lie.

To claim that clipping a bird's wings is equivalent to cutting their 'beaks, hooves, nails, hair' is complete nonsense. Cutting a horses mane or tail in no way impedes its' normal functions whereas clipping a bird's wings removes from them one of the fundamental aspects of their being which is intricately involved in their physiology and psychology. A more accurate comparison is the practice of 'hobbling' a horse, where opposite feet are tied close together so the horse can move only slowly and short distances. However, a horse is only hobbled temporarily for the purpose of grazing and is 'unhobbled' when used for riding, when it can move normally and use it's body in the way in the way it was designed for. A clipped parrot, however, is that way all the time, and will never be able to use it's body properly....it is in effect crippled.

[Dodes151]

Polarn, I agree that there is a little prejudice bastard in all of us. And I'm sorry for insulting you. I think I'm getting a better idea of where you're coming from, which I didn't get from your last post.
Janet, I can be ignorant with many things. I can not honestly admit to being ignorant on this subject. I'm sure you assume that I'm some random pet keeper who has only ever done things one way. That's simply not true. Im not trying to start a war with you people. I naively assumed that expressing my reasons for clipping might be constructive. That was ignorant on my part. But I've owned many parrots. I've worked with many more. I've had many different opportunities to observe the differences between clipped and non clipped birds. And my experiences have been vastly different than the claims I've read on this forum. I guess, since nothing I type can have the slightest possibility of being true here, all of my experiences have been exceptional, or I'm simply full of shit. Believe whichever you'd like. But I will continue to do everything in my power to keep my birds out of harm's reach.

[Michael]

I just found out today that my breeder has clipped my baby's wings even though I asked that she didn't.

She said it is her rule now because she had 2 baby's fly out and get loose when she was feeding them and that several people called her after getting their flighted baby's telling her that they flew into a window and broke their necks or had other injuries.

Are you sure you can trust a breeder with ANYTHING that can't keep their babies in the house? Do you realize how ridiculous this sounds??? Can you imagine a daycare trying to explain how a kid managed to get out and lost! Also the breeder violated your agreement and trust without consulting you. I know it's hard to change things when you have your heart set but this breeder is an idiot and not worthy of your patronage. Please reconsider and support someone more responsible.

PS most breeders just clip for their own convenience and lie or make excuses after getting your money on false promises. I had a similar case once and detailed it in a post on this forum.

[Ardeotis]

Keeping flighted parrots is easy. It's keeping parrots that is hard.

Aww cute.


I think a lot of you are missing the point. This is turning into a clip-no clip argument. One of the main points that Dodes was making and to extent I was making is what clipping does to a bird. That's the argument here. Not the act of clipping itself. I don't care if you clip your birds as I still whole-heartedly believe it is a personal choice based on many factors in the environment.

Clipping wings is not at all the same as the act of soaring in horses. Nor is it anywhere close to tying the legs together of dogs or horses. That is limiting or even damaging to their only mode of transportation. A lot of you seem to be ignoring the fact that birds have more than one mode of transportation. Flying and walking. Parrots especially have evolved a beak to be to used like a hand. They are very mobile animals in either form a movement they choose to use. A parrot doesn't just lie there on its side if it has clipped wings.

Also, once again clipping , if done correctly, does not damage wings. Have you considered the fact that Michael's bird has "retarded" flying because a couple primaries had been damaged by a poor clip job and not the fact that she was clipped in the first place? Same goes for emotional damage. I have not seen anyone post undeniable and irrefutable proof that wing clipping alone and not other factors causes emotional damage or retardation.

Another thing is the safety factor. No one has done anything to convince me in the least that having a flighted bird is so much safer than a clipped one. Birds do die by hitting windows. Look up any study of migrating Passerines and you will be horrified to know how many die by hitting the windows of buildings every single year. Parrots are not exempt. Just because your parrot has never flown into the window doesn't mean it couldn't get frightened by something and fly into the wall or window and injure or kill itself. Parrots are prey animals. They will run from something they perceive as scary. My cockatoo is mortally terrified of paper towel rolls and I have no idea why. Always has been. But he perceives that as "scary." No matter how much you "bird proof" your home your bird could still get slammed into doors, chew a cord, fly out the door, get trapped somewhere, etc. Some of that could still happen to a clipped parrot. Accidents happen. In the cases of dogs eating birds - a parrot owner should never leave their parrot unattended with a predator. No matter how much you think you trust the dog. Flighted parrots aren't exempt from being taken by a dog though they are less likely.

I don't judge people who keep flighted parrots. If it works for you fine, but you shouldn't judge people who don't keep flighted parrots as you don't know the whole story or even the extent of their knowledge of birds.

[AmberH]

I just found out today that my breeder has clipped my baby's wings even though I asked that she didn't.

She said it is her rule now because she had 2 baby's fly out and get loose when she was feeding them and that several people called her after getting their flighted baby's telling her that they flew into a window and broke their necks or had other injuries.

Are you sure you can trust a breeder with ANYTHING that can't keep their babies in the house? Do you realize how ridiculous this sounds??? Can you imagine a daycare trying to explain how a kid managed to get out and lost! Also the breeder violated your agreement and trust without consulting you. I know it's hard to change things when you have your heart set but this breeder is an idiot and not worthy of your patronage. Please reconsider and support someone more responsible.

PS most breeders just clip for their own convenience and lie or make excuses after getting your money on false promises. I had a similar case once and detailed it in a post on this forum.

Well here's the thing, yes I am a disappointed that he has clipped wings but she has been breeding babies for years and in her experience she feels its better to clip. I think its a more traditional view of bird keeping but doesnt necessarily make it wrong.

People say I was a bad mother because I spanked my kids but I would argue that they grew up to be responsible and well adjusted. People have a right to spank kids or clip wings its a choice in how you raise your kids or pets and not everyone will agree.

The fact that 2 birds escaped when she went into the aviary to feed doesnt speak negatively to her breeding ability she is a breeder not a trainer so I dont expect her birds to do a million tricks and to be trained to recall as a baby.

I have been doing a lot of research and there are articles and personal stories of people whose birds have broken their necks, wings, or become injured in other ways by flying. Yes it probably means they are not well trained but to someone whose job is to breed babies she is not focusing on training in that way.

She focuses on handling and step up so that the birds are well adjusted to being touched and held and can do basic step up. This is probably what the MAJORITY of people plan to do with their birds I personally want him to be way more than a caged animal in the living room.

So I wish she would have allowed me the choice but she cares enough about the babies that she clips their wings in hopes that their new inexperienced owners dont allow them to get injured.

I dont agree with it but I will deal with it and I have no doubt that my baby will get past it and be fine.

[marie83]

So much to respond to hear and frankly I cant really be bothered to but I would like to make a few points so I'll keep them very brief.

1. Why can't people have an adult conversation and friendly debate without being accused of throwing insults about? For example I suggested that one of the people in this conversation have a rethink about what retarded actually means, not in those words exactly but that is how I meant it. Also there's absolutely no need at all to be swearing at other forum members and throwing toys out the pram. Well done to those of you who can hold an adult conversation and are putting your points across passionately but politely.

2. spelling mistakes happen, particularly when your trying to write a long message on an ace rather than a computer. Doesn't mean that person doesn't have a clue what they are talking about.

3. Evolution happens, not through choice but genetic mutation. Kakapo did not decide "oh I don't feel like flying today".

4. I keep seeing the whole safety thing cropping up. In what way are clipped birds safer? Clipped birds can still get through windows, get trapped in doors, fall into the toilet, fly into a ceiling fan etc etc. I feel that clipping wings lulls people in to a false sense of security, I've heard it many many times "oh but he can't fly" and the next thing is the parrot is missing, been stood on because it climbed on to the floor etc. All measures that you take with flighted birds should be put in place with clipped birds too. A properly fledged bird raised in a home will not fly in to windows if taught about them, besides that if your really concerned your bird will spook or its an aviary bird that's been brought inside get some curtains or a blind and switch the light on. You can even get a voile or net curtain if you want natural daylight. If your not willing to alter the way you live to adapt to a birds needs you shouldn't have a bird at all as the same precautions need to be taken.

5. Of course there will always be the odd accident with flighted birds but clipped birds are much more at risk of falling and injuring themselves. I spoke to a few avian vets whilst doing research into my college project a few months ago and all said clipped birds get in more trouble overall. Of course that info doesn't take in to account birds that die without the vet being informed though but they all believed the risk is very little and not worth taking away the enrichment and health benefits the birds get from flying with the right precautions.

6. My birds definitely fly for the fun of it, not just to get from place to place, they are lazier than they would be in the wild of course because obviously I cannot give them that much space to fly. Either way it doesn't matter the reasons why parrots in the wild fly to find food and nest sites- it keeps them fit and healthy, and that is kind of necessary for survival and breeding.

7. In the UK the law states that animals must be free to exhibit natural behaviours (animal welfare act 2006), this law covers birds too. IMO clipping wings totally breaks that law, birds fly, its what they do by nature.

8. yep nobody can completely prevent bad things happening. I've never lost any of my birds outside, not have they been trapped anywhere, flown into the toilet etc. Ollie did however lose his balance once and fall but was able to spread his wings and save himself. I did have a bird kill itself on a bird safe toy and so have other people. Maybe I should take away all their toys?

[truste]

I still whole-heartedly believe it is a personal choice based on many factors in the environment.

This is, in the simplest terms, my stance. Look, every bird is different in personality, need, temperament ,etc. Some birds are disabled, or have psychological issues from being in bad homes, or have health issues. Every bird's home is different - cage, household dangers, household members, daily schedule etc.

The person who comes the closest to comprehending every aspect of the bird's personality, needs, household dangers, and so on is the bird's owner, the person who interacts with and observes the bird daily. It's not me. So with my SEVERELY limited understanding, how can I say that he/she is wrong for clipping the bird, as long as the actual act of clipping doesn't cause any direct physical pain? How can I say that the amount of damage (including psychological) caused by clipping exceeds the amount of damage sustained from not clipping for that specific bird (that I dont know) in that specific household (that I've never seen)? I can't, so I don't judge.

Don't get me wrong - I think that for the MAJORITY of birds/circumstances, full flight is better. That doesn't mean that sometimes it isn't.

As far as flight being natural. If we were aiming for a completely natural life, we wouldn't be keeping parrots in the first place, taking them to the vet when they're sick, or providing them with balanced meals every day. One could argue that all of these things cause psychological damage compared to birds living in the wild - and who could know for sure?

[Eric&Rebecca]

Keeping flighted parrots is easy. It's keeping parrots that is hard.

Another thing is the safety factor. No one has done anything to convince me in the least that having a flighted bird is so much safer than a clipped one. Birds do die by hitting windows. Look up any study of migrating Passerines and you will be horrified to know how many die by hitting the windows of buildings every single year. Parrots are not exempt. Just because your parrot has never flown into the window doesn't mean it couldn't get frightened by something and fly into the wall or window and injure or kill itself. Parrots are prey animals. They will run from something they perceive as scary. My cockatoo is mortally terrified of paper towel rolls and I have no idea why. Always has been. But he perceives that as "scary." No matter how much you "bird proof" your home your bird could still get slammed into doors, chew a cord, fly out the door, get trapped somewhere, etc. Some of that could still happen to a clipped parrot. Accidents happen. In the cases of dogs eating birds - a parrot owner should never leave their parrot unattended with a predator. No matter how much you think you trust the dog. Flighted parrots aren't exempt from being taken by a dog though they are less likely.

You can actually 'window train' birds. I window trained mine by letting them tap it and also by having safety blinds and cushions on my windows. They do learn if you let them, much like any animal learns not to do certain things. Clipped and non clipped birds can still have accidents, its just about your ability to prevent these accidents. For example, flighted birds can hurt themselves by flying into windows, my choice is to keep my birds flighted, so I remedy this by removing this situation as much as I can. If I, as the owner, want to keep my bird flighted I have to do hard work to prevent any possible accidents that come from this choice. Much like I'm sure people who clip try to prevent accidents resulting from clipping. As for getting away, that responsibility lies entirely with the owner by teaching flight recall training and making sure vigilence is observed. At the end of the day, clipped or flighted you cannot possibly prevent every single accident no matter how vigilient you are and I think the risks for both are exactly the same. I don't think clipping makes the bird safer and likewise I don't keeping them flighted does either because they both carry equal risks. Also it is not the best way of taming a bird or building a bond and if that's insulting to your opinion then its my opinion that that's no way to tame a bird.

To conclude I keep my birds flighted for one MAJOR reason- If I clip I feel I am taking away a big part of what makes the bird a bird- flight.
Having had a lot of birds come to me which were clipped in my experience they became healthier and happier once they could fly from being clipped. That's something I don't see how I could overcome with training or anything else if I clipped my birds, I can't train them happier (and maybe you think that's a load of crap that the birds were less healthy and unhappy but I can guarantee you that's what I experienced over many birds).

If my birds were disabled or injured in a way that needs them to be clipped, then yes I would because that's when the balance of safety would tip.

To the OP, this person/breeder is very untrustworthy, fortunately the wings will grow out and I'm sure there a re many to help you with rehablitiative flight training. Just be vigilent because you'd be surprised how much clipped birds escape but i'm sure you'll be fine.

[marie83]

As far as flight being natural. If we were aiming for a completely natural life, we wouldn't be keeping parrots in the first place, taking them to the vet when they're sick, or providing them with balanced meals every day. One could argue that all of these things cause psychological damage compared to birds living in the wild

Absolutely, all this is covered in another thread but is completely irrelevant to the clip/don't clip debate.

**EDIT** just to add based on this don't you think we already take enough from them? I know I do, we should be aiming to make things as close as possible to their natural life regardless of our own circumstances if we choose to keep parrots. Something I'm certainly working towards.

[truste]

As far as flight being natural. If we were aiming for a completely natural life, we wouldn't be keeping parrots in the first place, taking them to the vet when they're sick, or providing them with balanced meals every day. One could argue that all of these things cause psychological damage compared to birds living in the wild

Absolutely, all this is covered in another thread but is completely irrelevant to the clip/don't clip debate.

**EDIT** just to add based on this don't you think we already take enough from them? I know I do, we should be aiming to make things as close as possible to their natural life regardless of our own circumstances if we choose to keep parrots. Something I'm certainly working towards.

I agree that it's irrelevant to the clip/don't clip debate. That was my point. I was saying: others have brought up that we shouldn't clip because its not natural. I'm trying to say that going for natural-ness is a whole other debate that involves he question 'should we keep parrots at all.' As long as we all agree that we're talking about parrots in captivity (pets), the question of 'natural' no longer applies.

Your second point - I also agree. That's why my opinion is that in MOST cases, it's better for them to fly. My own birds fly. BUT, I also believe that for some situations, non-flight is better, and only the owner has the info to make the decision for his/her parrot (with vet consultation, etc).