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Photoperiodic, how does it work?

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Photoperiodic, how does it work?

Postby Elaihr » Wed May 21, 2014 2:45 am

Hi!

I'm actually writing this post hoping that Pajarita will see it. I've seen her/you mention parrots being photoperiodic in a few threads around the forums (although I cannot remember which ones). The last time I saw this was in a thread about Quaker's, where Pajarita mentioned them being native to temperate climate zones, not tropical ones. I'm not very well read up on this whole photoperiodic theory, but I'm very curious and what I've heard about it makes sense.

Now to my question: I have a Blue-headed Pionus, and from what I've heard they come from the Amazonas, which I guess is a tropical zone? How does this affect my parrot, and what should I do (daylight-schedule wise) to keep her as healthy as possible? Like, one daylight-schedule might be good for let's say a Quaker (non-tropical), but I guess I need to stick to another one for a tropical bird?

Also, right me if I'm wrong about Pi's being tropical, it's just that wherever I've read about the Amazonas people have described it as tropical. I am unfortunately not a scientist so I don't know much about it myself :?

I'd be very thankful for more info on this subject, it's very interesting!

Best regards,
Sara & Penny
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Re: Photoperiodic, how does it work?

Postby Pajarita » Wed May 21, 2014 10:59 am

Photoperiodic means that their life 'periods' (as in seasons like breeding season, molting season, migrating season, resting season, etc) are governed by light (photos in Greek means light). It's the principle on which the avian circadian (about one day) and circannual (about one year) cycles and all biorhythms (life cycles) are based.

What I am going to give to you now is an abbreviated and simplified version of it, it's much more complex than this but I hope this will give you a good understanding of the subject.

The entire bird body and its functions are 'managed' by different hormones secreted by different glands at different times. The 'master' gland (the one that sends the 'signal' to other glands which, in turn, might send a 'signal' to still other glands) is called the pituitary gland which is deep inside the brain (in reality there is a close relationship with the hypothalamus but I am not going to go into that). This gland hormones (the 'signal') are 'turned on and off' by light. The presence or absence of light sets their 'internal clock' (circadian and circannual cycles) so their body knows what is supposed to do and when.

The biggest difference between birds and mammals is that we have photoreceptors (light sensitive cells) in our eyes only, so, if we close our eyes, we register no light - but birds have photoreceptors deep in their brains and their cranial bones are so very thin that light actually goes through them and reaches the photoreceptors in the brain, activating them (this is why just because a bird is asleep, it doesn't mean that his endocrine system is not 'activated' if there is light in the room, even red light which works for mammals but not for birds -I mention this because lots of people say their parrots are fine because although they stay up at night, they take naps during the day but this doesn't do anything for the endocrine system - and also because some people have taken to using red lights with their birds thinking it prevents them from registering it but, although this works for mammals, it doesn't work with birds because red light traverses tissue faster than any other light so their brain photoreceptors are still registering it).

Now, the other big difference about birds endocrine system is that they do not produce sexual hormones all the time or every pre-determined number of days, weeks or months (like mammals do), they only produce them if conditions for breeding are good. If conditions are propitious, the gonads (sexual organs) become active and grow; if conditions are not good, the gonads go dormant and shrink. These 'conditions' are what we call 'breeding triggers' and there are three: light, food and weather. Birds from temperate climates always use photoperiodism (light) so, when the days are long enough (there is a precise number of light hours in the day that would 'set' the clock, this number is slightly different for every species and it's called the point of photorefractoriness - I don't think there are any studies with parrots but, with canaries, we know they start producing sexual hormones when daylight reaches 12 hours, achieve their peak at 13 to 14 and stop at 15 hours when they go into molt), their gonadas become activated and start to grow preparing for breeding. Birds from tropical and subtropical climates use food availability as their first trigger and weather as their second so, when the wet season is over (no more constant rain and/or storms), plants grow and start to bloom and bear fruit and that's when birds breed. Problem is that, in captivity, it's always good weather inside a house and food is always rich and plentiful BUT the good news is that ALL birds, even the ones that live smack on the equator where there is only a 20 minute difference of light hours between the seasons, are photoperiodic and would revert to using light as their primary trigger for their breeding cycle (there are studies on this).

Supposedly, for tropical birds, we could manage their breeding cycles through food availability - if we knew exactly the composition of breeding and resting season food (resting season is the period when they don't breed which we would call winter) in the wild and were willing and able to micromanage it to that extent but I don't think anybody is. I know I am not, I do give them less protein and no sprouts (they are strictly breeding season food) during the winter but that's about it. So we have no choice but to use photoperiodism.

Why is it so important to use photoperiodism with pet birds? Because:

a) if we make all the conditions propitious for breeding all year round (long days, rich and plentiful food and good weather), they would continue to produce sexual hormones, their gonads would become hugely enlarged and the bird ends up not only severely sexually frustrated (imagine been aroused all day long, day after day, week after week, month after month with no relief in sight) which is the main cause of behavioral problems in pet birds (screaming, biting, plucking, self-mutilation) but also in constant physical discomfort if not pain (there are cases of birds that have peed blood because their gonads are so large that they have displaced other internal organs).

b) the endocrine system is not only for breeding. It controls everything else as well: appetite, mood, growth, immune system, sleep, energy level, etc)

Now, there is an added trick to keep a bird photoperiodic and that's exposure to dawn and dusk because it's the change in the actual sun light spectrum that sets this internal clock. If you look at many posts about chronic laying in hens, you will see that a large number of avian vets recommend using Lupron (or some other brand that does the same thing which I personally think it's a hairbreadth short of immoral -I can explain why if you want) on them, while some would recommend lower protein (good idea!) and longer nights. But longer nights and shorter days are not enough, you need to follow the sun. Period. Why? Because we can slowly increase or decrease light intensity (as it happens during dawn and dusk), we can even elevate or lower the angle (as when the sun rises and sets) but we can't change the spectrum because light bulbs always have the same spectrum all the time! There are few studies about this because, most of the studies done on sexual hormones and breeding were done to prove that birds can go into breeding condition with regular short periods of light (there was one that managed to make birds breed on just four hours of light at a time separated with short intervals of darkness) but there is one that I know of that hits the nail right on the head (I can't post the link, my internet explorer goes down when I try but it's called "The influence of light wavelength on reproductive photorefractoriness" so you can look for it). But, even without this particular study, I would still be convinced this is true if for nothing else that I've been doing this for so many years this way and it works like a charm (mind you, it's not that I am genius and figured this out by myself, it was just that I've had canaries all my life and all good canary breeders know you have to keep them attuned to the seasons so, when I started taking in parrots, I just kept on doing the same thing I've done all my life). I've taken in screamers, biters, chronic layers, pluckers and self-mutilators and, although success was not 100% with the pluckers (50/50 I would say - all of them got much, much better but there were some that continue plucking either a small part of their body or only during breeding season), all the screamers, biters, self-mutilators and chronic layers stopped. And that simply cannot be a coincidence!

Hope this clarifies the subject but, if anybody has any questions or doubts, please feel free to ask.
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Re: Photoperiodic, how does it work?

Postby shiraartain » Wed May 21, 2014 1:33 pm

This is the study which I think you were talking about http://hal.inria.fr/docs/00/90/05/14/PDF/hal-00900514.pdf

This is really quite fascinating to me though, do you know of any studies/papers that talk about how the light reaches the receptors in their brains?
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Re: Photoperiodic, how does it work?

Postby marie83 » Wed May 21, 2014 8:09 pm

I think I've read a few articles about light cycles affecting people (no doubt other animals too if that's the case) as well. They also tended to say that even small amounts of light can disrupt our own bodyclocks and have a negative impact on our health and wellbeing. It makes sense, our eyelids are only very thin really and the vast majority of the human population don't get to see changes in day length either really, a flick of a switch and it's suddenly night time.

So here comes a parroty question anyway. I can't really say I've looked into wild GCCs breeding pattern and seasons yet but in the UK they go to nest when the days are shorter (and the weather worse to boot). All the breeders I've spoke to have said the same and with my own GCC he follows the same pattern- he only has light and his food as the cue though although we do tend to keep the flat coolish in the winter and have the heating off as much as possible. One of the breeders spoke a lot about his set up and showed us his aviaries, breeding birds is pretty much the only thing he does so he tended to follow a natural light schedule, only had bulbs fitted for emergencies and doesn't heat his aviaries.
This kind of goes against what you have learned about all parrots only breeding when days are longer/weather is better etc. so why could this be? I realise a few breeders is a pretty small sample size GCC in the uk, I realise that possible the glow from artificial street lighting might affect them but then there is also no artificial light outside the room my birds are kept. Perhaps they are bringing their birds into breeding condition solely through diet? Anything else obvious or less obvious that I have missed. Maybe there are just exceptions to the rule and GCC are one of them?
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Re: Photoperiodic, how does it work?

Postby Pajarita » Thu May 22, 2014 10:17 am

shiraartain wrote:This is the study which I think you were talking about http://hal.inria.fr/docs/00/90/05/14/PDF/hal-00900514.pdf

This is really quite fascinating to me though, do you know of any studies/papers that talk about how the light reaches the receptors in their brains?



There are many. The fact that birds have photoreceptors in the brain is common knowledge among scientists so I don't think there are any studies proving they exist but, if you put avian (or birds) brain (or deep brain) photoreceptors in your search engine, you will find lots and lots of studies on them.
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Re: Photoperiodic, how does it work?

Postby Pajarita » Thu May 22, 2014 10:38 am

marie83 wrote:I think I've read a few articles about light cycles affecting people (no doubt other animals too if that's the case) as well. They also tended to say that even small amounts of light can disrupt our own bodyclocks and have a negative impact on our health and wellbeing. It makes sense, our eyelids are only very thin really and the vast majority of the human population don't get to see changes in day length either really, a flick of a switch and it's suddenly night time.

So here comes a parroty question anyway. I can't really say I've looked into wild GCCs breeding pattern and seasons yet but in the UK they go to nest when the days are shorter (and the weather worse to boot). All the breeders I've spoke to have said the same and with my own GCC he follows the same pattern- he only has light and his food as the cue though although we do tend to keep the flat coolish in the winter and have the heating off as much as possible. One of the breeders spoke a lot about his set up and showed us his aviaries, breeding birds is pretty much the only thing he does so he tended to follow a natural light schedule, only had bulbs fitted for emergencies and doesn't heat his aviaries.
This kind of goes against what you have learned about all parrots only breeding when days are longer/weather is better etc. so why could this be? I realise a few breeders is a pretty small sample size GCC in the uk, I realise that possible the glow from artificial street lighting might affect them but then there is also no artificial light outside the room my birds are kept. Perhaps they are bringing their birds into breeding condition solely through diet? Anything else obvious or less obvious that I have missed. Maybe there are just exceptions to the rule and GCC are one of them?


Yes, breeders of grays also report they go into condition when the days are getting shorter but mine go twice a year, in the spring, just like everybody else, and the beginning of the fall, same as the cockatoos.

GCCs come, mostly, from Bolivia, there are some in Paraguay, Northern Argentina and a small piece of Eastern Brazil but they are all over Bolivia and Bolivia has two seasons, rainy and dry, the rainy is Nov-Apr and the dry May-Oct. They breed during the month of February (the equivalent of August for the Northern Hemisphere) BUT, although February is technically summer, February days are cool in Bolivia because of the altitude, the rains and the winds that come from Chile, over the Andes and passing through the North of Argentina. If you think about it, this would be the perfect time of the year for them to breed because they have lots and lots of food (summer starts in December so, by February, plants are already bearing fruit) and it's also not as hot as the real hot months where the temperature can climb to 100 degrees and cook the eggs. I think that, in captivity, they might go into breeding when the days are getting a bit cooler because it resembles most closely the conditions of their natural habitat at breeding time (days still long enough, cooler temperatures and rich food).
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Re: Photoperiodic, how does it work?

Postby cml » Thu May 22, 2014 2:20 pm

The fact that birds have photoreceptors in the brain is common knowledge among scientists so I don't think there are any studies proving they exist...

Pajarita, the basis of scientific facts is that it's not "proven" until there are lots and lots of peer reviewed papers written about the subject and different sources coming to the same conclusions. Even then it's only accepted as "truth" until it can be proven false. This is the basis of science.
Until empirically "proven" and verified it remains nothing but theory.

I am not putting in an opinion on photoreceptors in birds' brains here, but I believe you should be careful with presenting "facts". Linking to websites etc is not good enough if you want to claim it to be a scientific fact. Many people around here has started to listen to you, so you need to be sure of what you claim. If you want to present it as your own thoughts on matters, from your own extensive experience or info from different non-academical sources, that is fine - but dont call it scientific facts unless it is :).
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Re: Photoperiodic, how does it work?

Postby Pajarita » Fri May 23, 2014 10:46 am

If you are not arguing the fact that it IS a scientific fact that birds have photoreceptors in the brain, what is it exactly that you are arguing about, CML? The fact that I said I doubted there are any studies proving they exist? I also doubt there are studies proving that people have knees but everybody knows they do. And why would I present a scientific fact as my personal opinion if, indeed, it is a scientific fact? That would make no sense... Did you even bother to do a quick search to see if I was right?

Maybe the problem is that you are confusing morphology with physiology. When it comes to morphology, there are usually no studies and no theory which needs to be proven empirically because it's mostly a matter of observation (open up the bird's brain -or the person's leg- look inside and record what you find). The studies come after they 'discover' something in there and here it's where the theories that need to be proven come in. But these studies are not on the fact that a certain organ, system or whatever exists (morphology), they are on what that organ does, why, how, what is its relationship to other organs, etc (physiology) and, if you do a quick search, you will find there are lots of them on these photoreceptors.
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Re: Photoperiodic, how does it work?

Postby cml » Sat May 24, 2014 8:39 am

Pajarita wrote:If you are not arguing the fact that it IS a scientific fact that birds have photoreceptors in the brain, what is it exactly that you are arguing about, CML? The fact that I said I doubted there are any studies proving they exist? I also doubt there are studies proving that people have knees but everybody knows they do.
You are spot on here Pajarita, I was asking (not arguing I hope :)) you to be careful what you present as scientific facts. I've seen you quote your solar light schedule as well photoreceptors in birds' brains as scientific facts without any reliable sources (parrot sites etc does NOT count as scientific, nor does random PDFs). As I wrote, I know you have extensive experience (did you miss that compliment?) and it's fine to give advice based on that as well :).

I wont comment on the knee sarcasm here, its silly and you know it. There are also probably hundreds of old papers on human anatomy confirming that we indeed have knees if you want to knit pick.

Now to this question regarding brain photoreceptors in birds; I find it fascinating and I have done some quick googling through Google Scholar (which searches for scientific papers, rather than websites). It's not ideal, but since I am not at university any longer I do not have access to the vast databases of scientific material that I once had. However, I did find some published papers on this subject anyway and here's two:
http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/BF01955346#page-1
Unfortunatly you can only read one page (click look inside), since this is in a database which requires paying.
(Again, I miss my access to all licensened databases I previously could access.
Interesting short read non the less, if a little disturbing methods used I would say.
BUT, the article discusses ways they've used to PROVE that birds have photoreceptors not only in eyes and exposed skin.

http://www.pnas.org/content/107/34/15264.full#ref-7
This article is a little more specific and in-depth, but is reffering to sources to prove that removing the eyes of birds does not change it's photoreceptic response, again confirming what you are saying.

Now, to keep this discussion going, as I find it a fascinating subject :), can you please quote some scientific sources on the solar schedule which you always promote? I would be very interested in studying it more closely. Perhaps we can all learn something new, and expanding one's knowledge is always fun!
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Re: Photoperiodic, how does it work?

Postby Pajarita » Sat May 24, 2014 12:07 pm

I couldn't post the link because my computer has an issue with posting PDF sources but another poster did based on the name of the study I gave out (two postings up, I think, check it out). It's specific to the effect the change in wavelength (colors or spectrum) of light has on reproduction and photorefractoriness in birds. This one is about the change in spectrum setting the circadian cyle of other animals (they did not use birds) http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/ar ... 7212000553. And this one is from Wikipedia (with its own references) on light effects on circadian cyle entrainment in general(meaning 'setting the internal clock) and this one is a study on individual wavelength effect on it: http://www.science20.com/news_releases/ ... ian_rhythm. But I could only post the ones that are not PDF, if you put something like 'light wavelength circadian cycle' on your search engine, you will see lots of PDFs there.

The thing is that we still don't know enough about this subject and there aren't that many studies on humans or other animals about it, and practically nothing on birds (they hardly ever use birds for this type of studies because the main interest is always humans and we are so very different from them, especially when it comes to light perception and effect)

Twilight (dawn and dusk) have different spectrums than, say, mid-day sunlight. As a matter of fact, sunlight is not the same at any point during the day or throughout the seasons, it's constantly changing as the earth rotates on its axel and orbits around the sun and, besides these two doozies, lots of other factors also influence the actual light (see this: http://www.spc.noaa.gov/publications/corfidi/sunset/).
The biggest difference appears to be in UV light (see this: http://www.cpc.ncep.noaa.gov/products/s ... rnal.shtml).

I actually guessed the relationship between dawn and dusk and the workings of the birds endocrine system by coincidence. I've always kept canaries and all canary breeders have known for years and years that you need, at least, 13 hours of light for them to go into breeding condition so, although we did not know why or how, we knew it worked. We also knew that if you put them under 15 hours of light, they would go into molt and we knew that, if you wanted to bring them into condition early, you had to adjust their exposure to light 15 minutes at a time each week or you would screw up the whole process. Again, there were no studies, no science to back this, no nothing, just plain old trial and error and, it was something that, if you were lucky enough to have a good mentor, you learned from him. I never even knew that people manipulated light to get a longer breeding season or that people kept their birds at a human light schedule until I came to the States and met my second mentor, Big Jim. But I never did it because I had no interest in getting more clutches than one or two a year. I never bred them to sell or show the babies so why do something that was going to end up depleting my breeding stock?- and, as the years went by and I talked to more and more people, I found that keeping them at a strict solar schedule (as I was taught to do by my first mentor, my cousin's grandfather -the same cousin I am going to visit in Canada in July and for whom I am bringing one of the Timbrados bred by me as a present), my canaries were more fertile, lived longer and, after the first couple of years, ended up with zero hatchling mortality. When I started taking in parrots back in 1992, I kept them the same way I kept my canaries and all the ones that came with behavioral problems got better so I would always recommend it on birdsites, but people who just covered the cage at a certain time did not always report any improvement -even chronic layers continued laying while I've never even had off-season layers, much less chronic after their endocrine system went back on track. And that got me thinking what exactly was that I was doing different from them because, like I've always said, I don't have the birdie magic wand so it had to be something in the environment - and the only difference (well, diet is also a factor) is the exposure to twilight. Now, until a few years ago, I would always refer to my strict solar schedule (among other things) as one of my 'off the wall' theories (things that I know work but for which I have no scientific basis whatsoever) but, thankfully, science started exploring this subject and we now have studies on it so I can convince skeptics like you -LOL
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