Photoperiodic, how does it work?

[Pajarita]

CML, PLEASE do some research before you post. You have claimed several times in the past that what I say about birds been photoperiodic and needing twilight to set their internal clock is just my personal opinion and that there is no scientific back-up for it but this is only because you don't research the subject properly and you don't even read the links that have been posted proving it. Now you are saying that this cannot be so because, in the tropics, there is an almost equal number of light and dark hours but what you are missing is the fact that there is a 20 minute difference (which the birds register) and a change in the actual light spectrum between the seasons (again, you need to do a more thorough research).

Here are some studies on tropical and sub-tropical birds and photoperiodism:

http://rspb.royalsocietypublishing.org/ ... 43.full.ht

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3396905/

http://www.academia.edu/6065224/Photope ... r_montanus

http://www.int-ornith-union.org/files/p ... /S30.1.htm

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/ar ... 6X01916733

http://repository.ias.ac.in/4284/

As to parrots owned by people who work full time and are kept to a human light schedule - why do you think so many of them of the large species are given up because of hormonal (behavioral) problems? Why do you think that so many hens of the smaller species end up as chronic layers?

[cml]

You are very much like a politician Pajarita, you only reply to the things you have a prepared answer for. I am sorry, but I dont buy it.

CML, PLEASE do some research before you post.

I have, but evidently I have not yet come to the same conclusion as you.

You have claimed several times in the past that what I say about birds been photoperiodic and needing twilight to set their internal clock is just my personal opinion and that there is no scientific back-up for it but this is only because you don't research the subject properly and you don't even read the links that have been posted proving it

Please be so kind as to point me to that scientific paper which discusses twilight and birds. I've read a number of your links but couldnt even find the word twilight mentioned.

I have never disputed that birds are affected by light, that is utterly nonsense - of course they are, but I am interested in knowing if there are any studies saying they specifically need the wavelengths provided in twilight (like you claim).
Insome of the links I gave you (to scientific papers), they discuss how artifical light is detrimental to the production of melatonin. This is very important because it means we (and birds) should avoid blue light towards the end of the day, less we may introduce detrimental effects towards our sleeping patterns.

Exposing birds to the sun and letting them experience UV-light is great as well, something I think is discussed in another thread atm. Note that keeping them behind glass isnt ideal as it blocks alot of the UVB and UVC. Are you still preaching that bringing birds outside is dangerous (even when harnessed or kept in safe travel cages)?

Now you are saying that this cannot be so because, in the tropics, there is an almost equal number of light and dark hours but what you are missing is the fact that there is a 20 minute difference (which the birds register) and a change in the actual light spectrum between the seasons (again, you need to do a more thorough research).

I must ask, do you have trouble reading?

I have NOT stated that tropical birds arent photoperiodic. Re-read this paragraph, as many times as you want and need to understand it:

The length of day and night there (at the equator), while subject to very small seasonal changes is roughly 12/12. A bird indignenous to these parts of the world would then by reasoning not use photoreceptic responses to the same degree as birds living on either side of the equator, up in the northern or down in the southern hemisphere.

but what you are missing is the fact that there is a 20 minute difference (which the birds register) and a change in the actual light spectrum between the seasons (again, you need to do a more thorough research).

Again, I am not missing anything, please re-read my quote from above.

I find it highly amusing that you just skip over the part that in the northern (and southern) hemisphere at higher latitudes you simply cannot keep a tropical bird on a solar light schedule. Go a bit further north, to the north of Sweden as an example, and you dont have any darkness at all during some period of the summer.
Thus, people living at these latitudes cannot abide to your ramblings, it's impossible. Should they stop trying to do the best by their birds just because you've got a holy mission to preach about keeping the birds to the sun? I think not. They will have to adapt their light schedule to the best of their abilities to simulate changes in seasons and to keep the bird as healthy as possible.

As to parrots owned by people who work full time and are kept to a human light schedule - why do you think so many of them of the large species are given up because of hormonal (behavioral) problems?

NEVER EVER in my postings have I suggested a human light schedule. Here you again show your inability to read (or understand) anything that isnt worded just as your own thoughts.
The only thing I have suggested is that you should modify the birds light schedule to the best of your abilities and with regards to the situation you have (such as not living closer to the equator).
Simple huh?

Here are some studies on tropical and sub-tropical birds and photoperiodism:

http://rspb.royalsocietypublishing.org/ ... 43.full.ht

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3396905/

http://www.academia.edu/6065224/Photope ... r_montanus

http://www.int-ornith-union.org/files/p ... /S30.1.htm

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/ar ... 6X01916733

http://repository.ias.ac.in/4284/

Rather than spamming six random links would you mind directing me to the one which describes twilight and birds? Random spam does not count as proper referencing, you use a source to validate a specific statement or topic.

[Pajarita]

CML, this is what you posted:

Quote
the Blue headed pionus lives in south Central America and South America, and thus lives very close to the equator. The length of day and night there, while subject to very small seasonal changes is roughly 12/12. A bird indignenous to these parts of the world would then by reasoning not use photoreceptic responses to the same degree as birds living on either side of the equator, up in the northern or down in the southern hemisphere.
Unquote

I posted links that show that tropical and subtropical birds do use photoperiodism in exactly the same way as temperate zone birds. They use other triggers, too (food availability and weather) but temperate birds use them as well (that's why you can breed canaries all year round, same as parrots or any other bird as long as you reproduce the environmental conditions of their breeding seasons -look at chickens which lay every single day of the year) but those two triggers cannot be used in captivity to regulate gonad growth for the simple reason that we always feed them well and the weather inside a human home is always good - ergo, the ONLY possible tool we have for captive parrots not to be hormonal all the time is to use photoperiodism to control them.

Quote
I dont know where Pajarita gets her facts that a solar schedule with exposure to dawn and twilight is always optimal. I've yet to see any conclusive facts about it.
Unquote

There already was a link already posted to a study that shows that twilight is what controls gonadal growth in birds which I couldn't post myself but, as I gave the name of the study, Shiraartain kindly looked for it and posted it and I later directed you to it so this is the third time you are getting the info:

http://hal.inria.fr/docs/00/90/05/14/PD ... 900514.pdf

There are others, some on other animals, some in humans and, although there are big differences between diurnal and nocturnal animals and even how animals that are not ever exposed to the sun or lack eyes entrain their cycles, for what we know as of today, diurnal animals mechanism is pretty much the same. Please note that when you read wavelength or color, they are talking about solar spectrum differences which occur as the sun rises and sets, namely, dawn and dusk:

http://www.science20.com/news_releases/ ... ian_rhythm

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/ar ... 2213007641

http://photobiology.info/Roberts-CR.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melanopsin

http://www.academia.edu/696406/Sensitiv ... 0_nm_light

http://ehp.niehs.nih.gov/118-a22/

http://www.researchgate.net/publication ... otoperiods

http://www.researchgate.net/publication ... ed_Bunting

This one is old and poses a new theory, using the sun's height on the sky but I would think that, going by all the other and newer studies, the different spectrum (wavelength or color) is the reason and not the actual height above the horizon.
http://scienceblogs.com/clock/2007/02/1 ... entrain-t/


quote
A parrot needs a lot of sleep (lets see if Pajarita will let this one go or if she needs proof)
Unquote

Yes, please, do give me links to a couple of scientific studies that show that parrots need a lot of sleep because, as you say, I haven't seen any conclusive facts that proves it (you do know why people recommend 12 hours of sleep for them and when it started, right?).

[cml]

Again you skip right over the fact that your stragety is not viable at higher latitudes (for the second time as you seem keen to keep count), but I will get back to that later on in the post.

There already was a link already posted to a study that shows that twilight is what controls gonadal growth in birds which I couldn't post myself but, as I gave the name of the study, Shiraartain kindly looked for it and posted it and I later directed you to it so this is the third time you are getting the info:
http://hal.inria.fr/docs/00/90/05/14/PD ... 900514.pdf

Thank you, a very interesting read. I have read similar papers already, which talks about the same things happening to urban living birds which are being subjected to city lights (often white light). There are lots of other negative things with artificial light as well, so we would do well to try and minimize it during the evening period.

You seem intent on knowing best so I am not sure this is worth discussing any further, but I feel you are almost trying to misunderstand me?

Never have I suggested a human light schedule or that we should purposely withhold birds from being subjected to dawn and dusk.

I do not dispute that subjecting birds to natural dawn and dusk is good, I am saying it is impossible and to offer it as the only alternative isnt helping anyone.
People living at different latitudes than you will need to adapt to their life situations and act according to that, to be able to do the absolute best by their bird.
Where do I fail to communicate what I mean?

They use other triggers, too (food availability and weather) but temperate birds use them as well (that's why you can breed canaries all year round, same as parrots or any other bird as long as you reproduce the environmental conditions of their breeding seasons -look at chickens which lay every single day of the year) but those two triggers cannot be used in captivity to regulate gonad growth for the simple reason that we always feed them well

We can definetely use food management to simulate seasons if we wish, all it takes is a little more planning, no? Maybe we cannot do it fully, but we can limit access to protein during certain times a year, and cut down on other things when necessary as well. This is off topic, but it should definetely be possible to use food management to some extent. If it is necessary, then perhaps parrot owners SHOULD do this when they cannot use light as the main trigger.

http://www.science20.com/news_releases/ ... ian_rhythm

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/ar ... 2213007641

http://photobiology.info/Roberts-CR.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melanopsin

http://www.academia.edu/696406/Sensitiv ... 0_nm_light

http://ehp.niehs.nih.gov/118-a22/

http://www.researchgate.net/publication ... otoperiods

http://www.researchgate.net/publication ... ed_Bunting

Random spam again, please use sources as a means of strengthening your statements. That is the way you use references, not blindly posting them bulked together.
If you must do it this way, at least add each links' topic.

Yes, please, do give me links to a couple of scientific studies that show that parrots need a lot of sleep because, as you say, I haven't seen any conclusive facts that proves it (you do know why people recommend 12 hours of sleep for them and when it started, right?)

I am sure you will be very happy to tell me !

CML, this is what you posted:

the Blue headed pionus lives in south Central America and South America, and thus lives very close to the equator. The length of day and night there, while subject to very small seasonal changes is roughly 12/12. A bird indignenous to these parts of the world would then by reasoning not use photoreceptic responses to the same degree as birds living on either side of the equator, up in the northern or down in the southern hemisphere.

Yes I did, and I believe it still. I am sure they respond to light changes as well (do you see the "to the same degree above"?), but are you certain they use it as much as would a bird higher/lower in latitude?

I posted links that show that tropical and subtropical birds do use photoperiodism in exactly the same way as temperate zone birds.

Which one please, I glossed through the thread and couldnt see it (I suspect its hidden in the wall of links maybe?).

Oh and btw, if you want to use quotes, type [-qoute="insertnamehere"] text [/qoute] but remove the added - in the first brackets (I put it there so you can see the code)

EDIT: Made the post a little nicer . We need that I think if this isnt going to go completely haywire.

[Pajarita]

CML, I am done arguing with you. It's futile because you simply will not budge from your position no matter how many scientific studies I post which are specific to the points I make and which you disagree with. You either don't read them, read them and don't understand them, or understand them but refuse to acknowledge them because they prove you are wrong. Your 'grabbing at straws' answer is to call them 'spam' instead of commenting on what they are about as they ALL support my statements. And BTW, they are not spam. That word is used to mean unsolicited, commercial messages (usually emails), and not a list of links to scientific studies all about the same subject and which somebody (you!) asked for.

[cml]

I will repeat myself:
Again you skip right over the fact that your stragety is not viable at higher latitudes (for the third time as you seem keen to keep count).

It's futile because you simply will not budge from your position no matter how many scientific studies I post which are specific to the points I make and which you disagree with.

Are you serious? It's you that wont budge a single millimeter from what you think.
Please re-read our posts, I do NOT disagree with everything you've posted, I am saying that always saying that a solar scedule is best is not true and will not work everywhere in the world!
I will have to ask again, do you have trouble reading?

. You either don't read them, read them and don't understand them, or understand them but refuse to acknowledge them because they prove you are wrong.

I have read the ones you've told me what they contain, not the wall of links.
Did you even read what I wrote in reply to the specific links you gave? It's there in my previous posts.

Your 'grabbing at straws' answer is to call them 'spam' instead of commenting on what they are about as they ALL support my statements. And BTW, they are not spam. That word is used to mean unsolicited, commercial messages (usually emails)

I am quite sure I know better than you what spam is, being a gamer and all . Spamming is also a term for posting a lot of text, repeatedly, as well as the definition you gave above.

...not a list of links to scientific studies all about the same subject and which somebody (you!) asked for.

You posted a list of unspecified links clumped together, in two posts close together. I dont have time to read through each and everyone when I asked for the one which discusses twilight and birds.
It's hardly too much to ask for a topic for each link.

This whole farce is quite extraordinary, despite me agreeing with you that light plays an important role for birds you still wont answer how to deal with solar schedules at higher or lower latitudes. Skip right over important stuff by all means, but dont tell me its me that wont budge - I am more than willing to discuss things if you step down from your high horses and accept that you dont always know best.

I would also appreciate it if you stop saying that I am not reading or understanding the links you provided because you are incorrect. Just because you and I dont agree on something doesnt mean that you are right , you are terribly arrogant to assume so. I am quite certain you are dead wrong about many things (light and wavelengths not necessarily being one of them)!

Please re-read this (and try to get it through your thick skull that I dont disagree with you that light is important, only that we need to adapt to where we live):

Never have I suggested a human light schedule or that we should purposely withhold birds from being subjected to dawn and dusk.

I do not dispute that subjecting birds to natural dawn and dusk is good, I am saying it is impossible and to offer it as the only alternative isnt helping anyone.
People living at different latitudes than you will need to adapt to their life situations and act according to that, to be able to do the absolute best by their bird.
Where do I fail to communicate what I mean?

[Elaihr]

Hi again!

I'm sorry that my question brought up this much heat, that was not my intention.

I'm sure there's a possibility that a solar schedule near the bird's natural home would be the best, but like CML mentions there's no way I could do that. The sun rises around 4am and goes down around 11pm, which means night's very short in summer. And in the winter it's quite the opposite, it feels like the sun doesn't go up at all really, and once it does it's like it's saying "Whoa, it's cold here, I'll go back to Spain, seeya!" and then it's gone again..

So, am I getting this right; If the seasons don't change too drastically, it would be ideal if you could let your bird be exposed to natural sunset and sunrise, but in these parts of the world (where the time difference between day and night vary greatly over the seasons) it's better to try to simulate night even though it's still light outside (during summer, like I said it's light outside until 11pm) and keep some lights on (like, between 8 o clock in the morning and 8 o clock in the evening) when it's dark almost all day (during winter)?

[Wolf]

Yes, you have it right. In the majority of populated places in the world a strict solar schedule will work, but where you live there is no viable alternative except to make the adjustments needed to allow the bird to have a reasonable amount of daylight and darkness, both.
Don't worry about the amount of discussion between these two, It appears to me to be a normal thing with them and at times it gets interesting and you can actually lean from it. I do however prefer it without the insults and such as that part detracts from the discussion on both sides.

[Pajarita]

Hi again!

I'm sorry that my question brought up this much heat, that was not my intention.

I'm sure there's a possibility that a solar schedule near the bird's natural home would be the best, but like CML mentions there's no way I could do that. The sun rises around 4am and goes down around 11pm, which means night's very short in summer. And in the winter it's quite the opposite, it feels like the sun doesn't go up at all really, and once it does it's like it's saying "Whoa, it's cold here, I'll go back to Spain, seeya!" and then it's gone again..

So, am I getting this right; If the seasons don't change too drastically, it would be ideal if you could let your bird be exposed to natural sunset and sunrise, but in these parts of the world (where the time difference between day and night vary greatly over the seasons) it's better to try to simulate night even though it's still light outside (during summer, like I said it's light outside until 11pm) and keep some lights on (like, between 8 o clock in the morning and 8 o clock in the evening) when it's dark almost all day (during winter)?

Of course you can't keep the bird to a solar schedule so close to the Pole, the poor thing would not get enough sleep.

Personally, I think that any undomesticated species that has such difficult to fulfill needs should not be kept as a pet - animals like wolves, coatimundi, caymans, lions, tigers, large snakes and, yes, also parrots. We do them a huge disservice by breeding them to be human pet because no matter how much we try, we cannot keep them as nature meant for them to live.

[cml]

Of course you can't keep the bird to a solar schedule so close to the Pole, the poor thing would not get enough sleep.

Which is exactly what I've been trying to get across.