Taking Sennie for a walk and socialising with others

[marie83]

Like I said, we can all have opinions but none of us knows for sure and my motto has always been "when in doubt, don't do it".

Socialization outside one's family and territory is a beneficial thing for predators which live in small groups with juveniles leaving to establish their own family group but you don't see it happening in the wild with prey animals. Parrots flocks are a large extended family, they always stay within their own territory (and this is the reason why it's calculated that 30 - 40% of bird species will become extinct due to global warming: because they can't 'move' to another territory as fast as the landscape would change) and do not 'mingle' with other species, most especially predator ones, so however gradual or 'well done' we do it, it's still not a natural thing and I try my best to make everything as close to nature as I can for them.

Besides, and I don't mean to offend anybody here but it's my honest opinion, I think that most people take their birds out to show them off because the bird would be very happy just staying in and interacting with his human.

In the wild their territorys are much larger and they arent cooped up in a 12x8 room. Theres loads more to see and do and much more exercise to be had, they have to concentrate on survival and their bonds with each other. All this gives them stimulation almost constantly. They might not directly interact with other species but its ridiculous to say theres no interaction at all, everything co-exists. This is not stressful for them in the wild unless its a predator so it should be ok in captivity too. New flocks can be formed, theres always new additions each season.

you have more birds than you can care for so they rely on each other for stimulation which I believe is a good thing. Most owners dont have that so need to look elsewhere.

Who is to say being stuck inside four walls isnt more stressful for a bird?

who is to say yours being stuck inside all day with the artificial lighting arent still missing out in essential lightwaves? How do you know that the artificial light gets processed by the body the same way? I mean we already know that artificial vitamins are good but nowhere near as good and get processed by the body differently to naturally occuring ones.

I like your straight talk parjarita but I really do think you need to get over yourself and be more open minded. I live in a flat, I cannot shove my birds out in an aviary. If I took mine out walking it would be for the natural light, enrichement and in an area the birds were familar with so it was part of their territory to them. Really n thanks for lumping everyone as show offs and not thinking of the welfare of their birds.

btw please use what was said above about lighting as an example not as a critism because I think you are doing things wrong, thats not the case, anyone can see how hard you work on your birds welfare.

[Pajarita]

Don't worry, I did not take it as a criticism, it's a fact that artificial light is not anywhere near as good as direct sun. I do keep an open mind (Lord knows I am constantly revising my methods, my recipes and everything about my husbandry) but when it comes to stuff like this, it's as you say: "Who's to know?" Well, not me, that's for sure! And not anybody else because there are no studies so all we have are personal opinions I simply don't take risks if I am not 100% sure of the outcome, and, when it comes to stress, captive birds are already under a huge amount of it even in the best of homes with the best of care so I choose not to risk adding to it. I once read a biologist paper on pet birds necropsies that said that their internal organs looked as if they had been besieged by stress all their lives -besieged!- that made a huge impact on me and has stayed in my mind ever since so everything about my husbandry is geared toward reducing both physical and emotional stress and part of it is not exposing them to strange people and strange environments.

Can a bird get used to going outside? Sure it can. Will the 'getting used' imply stress until they do? Yes, it will. Will the stress completely disappear in time? Nobody knows. And there, in a nutshell, it's the Gordian knot of the question and why I chose not to take them out.

[marie83]

I respect your choice pajarita and whilst there are valid points you make I think taking a bird outside that has been introduced to it properly and is carefully managed whilst out is equally valid at the current time unless we find out more.

I would definitely not encourage anybody to do it unless they were going to tread very carefully though and put the time and effort into ensuring the birds welfare is taken care of with stressors kept to a minimum.

[Michael]

I think that most people take their birds out to show them off because the bird would be very happy just staying in and interacting with his human.

And I think that saying it's stressful to parrots to go outside (outside just so happens to be the place they naturally live in) is just an excuse to maintain the convenience of not having to harness train them and spend time outdoors with them. It's a lot of work, especially to do so in a less stressful manner. I see barely more visible stress/discomfort from my parrots outside as inside. Heck, when they get into fights inside, it's substantially higher than just being outside. So I really don't think stress is a valid argument. After all, outside is just a big version of inside.

But to the contrary, parrots that are not socialized and used to location changes are far more likely to suffer significant stress when they should end up relocating (be it rescue, rehome, or moving to a new house). When I moved, I just took my guys out for a walk and ended up at a new house. Didn't make one bit of a difference to them that the home, cages, environment, and even other bird were all different. This would stress other stay-at-home birds to no ends.

[Elaihr]

I know for a fact that I'm not taking Penny outside to show her off... I actually prefer going to places where there are as few strangers as possible, as she's not very used to going outside yet. The reasons I want to take her outside is partly because I want her to receive sunlight and get fresh air, but also because I often visit my family (she meets them all regularly so they're not strangers), and I'd prefer being able to bring her with me rather than leaving her alone at home. I'm not planning on bringing her into town where there's a lot of traffic and unknown things, I'm planning on bringing her to my family's house, with a lush and green garden, and with people she's familiar with. I really can't see how that can be worse than staying inside an apartment :/

Also I don't really have an opinion about letting your parrot meet strangers, I'm not entirely comfortable with it myself but that's because Penny's not very used to being outside yet. Even when she is I doubt I'll force her to interact with other people but if she wants to and they give their consent I see no reason to keep her from it. I can't see a reason to keep her from just seeing other people or creatures from a distance either, that must happen all the time in nature, after all

[Pajarita]

I think that most people take their birds out to show them off because the bird would be very happy just staying in and interacting with his human.

And I think that saying it's stressful to parrots to go outside (outside just so happens to be the place they naturally live in) is just an excuse to maintain the convenience of not having to harness train them and spend time outdoors with them. It's a lot of work, especially to do so in a less stressful manner. I see barely more visible stress/discomfort from my parrots outside as inside. Heck, when they get into fights inside, it's substantially higher than just being outside. So I really don't think stress is a valid argument. After all, outside is just a big version of inside.

But to the contrary, parrots that are not socialized and used to location changes are far more likely to suffer significant stress when they should end up relocating (be it rescue, rehome, or moving to a new house). When I moved, I just took my guys out for a walk and ended up at a new house. Didn't make one bit of a difference to them that the home, cages, environment, and even other bird were all different. This would stress other stay-at-home birds to no ends.

Michael, my entire day is work, work, work from 5 am to 11 pm so all my animals are as happy and healthy as I can make them (I don't even cook for my husband any longer -LOL) so, in my personal case, at least, I can assure it's not laziness.

But saying that 'outside' is where they live is a bit disingenuous. Yes, their natural habitat is outdoors but there is huge difference between outdoors NYC and outdoors sabana or jungle or whatever their natural environment is, and there is a huge difference in been in their natural habitat surrounded by 100 family members than going down a street with cars and humans. As to your seeing barely more distress signs outside, you must know by now that birds don't really show much and that's almost impossible for us to tell when they are stressed out. That's why people get the big surprise when their bird starts plucking, screaming, biting, etc apparently out of the blue. It wasn't. The bird was stressed out all along but they were never able to 'read' the signs. I have read countless postings on people taking their bird outside and making comments like: "He loved it! He was very alert, looking around very interested in everything!" They saw interest and joy, I see an anxious bird looking around in apprehension.

As to your assertion that parrots that don't go outside are far more likely to suffer significant stress when they are moved, this must be just your personal opinion because I've been doing the birdsite thing for many years and I've never seen any studies, anecdotes or even anything posted by anybody to this effect - besides, how could this be quantified? It would be impossible without tests on stress hormones, etc. But, if I go by my birds, it seem to me that staying inside does not make them more prone to stress when things change because I used to bring in new birds all the time when I had the rescue, I change cages, platforms and stands from one side to another, after Christmas I even put a 9 ft tree smack in the middle of it and take it out when it's dry, plus I have moved 8 times (twice from one state to another!) since I started keeping parrots and they've never even blinked about it (which I don't attribute to anything I do or don't do but to the fact that their 'flock' is always there for them). My birds eat consistently well, they don't pluck, they don't self-mutilate, they don't fight among themselves, they don't scream, they have never ever gotten a single fungal infection which is a sure sign of stress (and I am talking 22 years and over 400 birds) and I could count with the fingers of one hand the bacterial infections they have gotten under my care so, all in all, I would say that this is a pretty good record that would indicate that, when it comes to stress, they do well.

Like I said, you have your personal opinion based on your gut feeling and I have mine also based on my gut feeling, neither are valid as proof goes. One day we will know who was right and who was wrong but, as of today, there is a 50/50 chance for both you and me.

.

[Michael]

As to your seeing barely more distress signs outside, you must know by now that birds don't really show much and that's almost impossible for us to tell when they are stressed out. That's why people get the big surprise when their bird starts plucking, screaming, biting, etc apparently out of the blue.

There are signs but they come in varying degrees of obviousness. It could be as obvious as the bird flipping out or as subtle as a change in body temperature or runny poop or weight loss. I don't know that there can be stress with absolutely zero sign (no matter how subtle) or if there is but there is no sign, then is it even causing any harm? The harm is in the symptoms and not in the actual presence so if harmful symptoms are present, then stress is evident.

"He loved it! He was very alert, looking around very interested in everything!" They saw interest and joy, I see an anxious bird looking around in apprehension.

True. Some people just make things up or reflect how they feel. My birds eagerly put their harnesses on and don't get anything for it. I gave treats to teach them to put it on and on videos to show people how they should do it. But otherwise, I can go all year putting their harnesses on for all of a few treats throughout the entire year. So they are volunteering to put it on for other reasons. Perhaps it's just habit, but I do observe enough awareness in these birds to think it not unreasonable that they choose the consequence of going outside.

The way my birds behave outside, the fresh smell they develop, the excitement they face, the way they behave around new people (Truman in particular is great with anyone), it's all for them. I get to go outside with or without them. But I'm their only chance of experiencing this.

[cml]

Both my birds have greatly enjoyed many trips in their travel cages. They love sunbathing . Infact, they are very calm and non-plussed by travel and being in new places. We had to relocate tempory for home renovations earlier this spring - not a problem at all, both birds were right at home at our temporary appartment. Same thing with trips to our house out in the countryside, we arrive and the birds settle right in. I think it's all down to training.

As with Michael (in his case flight harnesses), both birds go willingly into their travel cages.

And no Pajarita, I dont take them outdoors to show them off either.
Infact, when we go outside we specifically go to places where we wont be bothered by people.