Outings with new baby

[Exitos872]

Yessir, captive companion parrots. I think your missing my point too. Maybe I'm just not a good verbalizer

[Wolf]

Exitos872;

Went back over this post specifically looking for what it was and I think that I understand what you are talking about and there is nothing wrong with your verbal skills. Perhaps a little bit more clarification would help for others to see your point, but even with that perhaps not.
So anyway, yes she has the same birds as the rest of us and yes she is speaking of wild birds.

[Pajarita]

I think this requires a clarification: there is no difference whatsoever between a wild sun conure and a companion sun conure except for the fact that we tricked the baby into imprinting to humans and that, genetically speaking, our parrots are inferior to the wild ones (which works against us in every sense). Their physiological and psychological needs are identical and that's my point. It's not comparing wolves to dogs, it's comparing wolves to wolves. Your bird is a very young baby and, in reality, you don't know how all this 'socializing' and taking it out is going to work out ten years from now. Nobody really does because this trend of teaching parrots tricks, taking them outside and allowing strangers to handle them is a very new fad. And I am talking just a few years. Nobody used to do any of these things years ago.

I am also no expert. Lord knows I would love to be one for no other reason that, if I was, my birds would have a better life. And that's all I want for them, to be healthy and happy. And to that end, I follow nature's ways because it took her hundreds of thousands of years to tweak each species just a bit at a time until they were perfectly fit for their environment - then man came and seeing the birds beauty, capacity for affection and intelligence decided to take them out of it, steal them from their parents and put them in a human home. Needless to say, this does not benefit the bird in any way, it only benefits us. And the more human oriented the husbandry and environment, the more they suffer. So I try to give them a life in captivity as close as I can make it to what nature ordained and that means living with companion birds, a fresh food diet, branches for perches, no clipping, a solar schedule and the least amount of stress possible.

One thing I can tell you, I've gotten birds with serious problems (plucking, self-mutilation, constant screams, aggression, chronic laying, I even got a CAG that was virtually catatonic from the terrible stress she lived under in her previous home), all of them created by captivity and man's arrogance in thinking they know better - and all of them got better just by allowing them to live a life closer to what Nature meant for them to live. Nature's way has worked over and over and over for my birds and, as they say, if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

[Hookturn]

For what it's with, Steve Hartman of Hartman Aviaries (who has some pretty impressive credentials including his affiliation with The Ohio State University) says the following

Important: Remember that babies have a short attention span. When training and socializing, keep sessions short. Pay attention to your baby's attention span and stop each stimulus before he loses interest. To achieve maximum development, you must expose the baby to as many different situations and experiences as possible. All babies should be conditioned to The Aviator Harness and know all about the outside world before they begin to fly. Get them out of the house, to the park, or your neighbor's. When you are on the deck, he should be with you. Treat you baby parrot in the same ways you would treat a three-year-old child and you will develop a well-adjusted, stable, lifelong companion.

[Wolf]

Well, I am not really sure how to reply to this, I did one reply to it but was not satisfied with it and deleted it. That was a couple of hours ago and I am back for another go at it. So although I will try to keep my thought together ,they are often like an unruly child or perhaps parrot.
Yes in this thread, Pajarita was speaking of wild parrots, but she was also speaking of captive birds as well, because this is where parrots get their current motovations from. We are so close to the wild parrots as far as generations removed from them that the difference is negligible. In other terms, our captive birds react to stimuli the same as if they were wild birds.
Unfortunately, in the grand scheme of things our birds will never be wild birds and at some point in time they are going to need to be exposed to the human environment sufficiently to learn to react differently and to pass this on to their offspring as part of their genetic memory as well. But, this needs to come about slowly and with careful thought beforehand so as to not unduly stress out the birds today.
I don't think that it is going to matter in the long run as to whether we think of this as right or wrong, because it is still going to happen and the best that we as parrot owners can hope to do is to make this as painless and as stress free as we can.
I am not impressed with anyone's credentials or where they may come from as they are basically worthless pieces of paper. The reason that I think this is that with all of their credentials they allow the parrot food industry to formulate food for parrots from information based on chickens and not parrots. This same industry freely admits that the nutritional requirements for a parrot are vastly different than the requirements of chickens. This is one area where those people with all the grand credentials know the problem and yet do nothing to correct the problem even though they could change this practice.
The area of socializing the parrot into a human culture is a totally new area and there are no certificates to say that you have learned how to assimulate one species into the environment of another species. This is, as far as academics are concerned, totally new ground and there are no records to show the results long term or even short term of this process of socialization.
This is a difficult place to be as introducing the parrot to the human world is going to happen and yet no one knows how to do this, much less how to do this in a beneficial way for the parrot.

[Pajarita]

For what it's with, Steve Hartman of Hartman Aviaries (who has some pretty impressive credentials including his affiliation with The Ohio State University) says the following

Important: Remember that babies have a short attention span. When training and socializing, keep sessions short. Pay attention to your baby's attention span and stop each stimulus before he loses interest. To achieve maximum development, you must expose the baby to as many different situations and experiences as possible. All babies should be conditioned to The Aviator Harness and know all about the outside world before they begin to fly. Get them out of the house, to the park, or your neighbor's. When you are on the deck, he should be with you. Treat you baby parrot in the same ways you would treat a three-year-old child and you will develop a well-adjusted, stable, lifelong companion.

LOL - Of course Steve Hartman would say that! He is the inventor, manufacturer and seller of the aviator harness so he wants you to take your bird out -how is he going to sell you his product otherwise?! He also owns one of the largest parrot breeding establishments so I SERIOUSLY question his expertise in pet birds, the true motivation behind his statements and his love for parrots (you don't really think that breeding parrots in a large breeding facility are happy or that a salesman will always tell you the whole truth and nothing but the truth about the product he is selling, do you?).

And let me tell you something else, there is one single phrase on the quote you provided that should tell you EVERYTHING you need to know about Steve Hartman's so-called expertise "Treat your baby parrot in the same ways you would treat a three-year-old child" WRONG!!!! Treating parrots as if they were children or dogs or canaries or whatever is what messes them all up! Parrots are not children, not dogs, not passerines, not anything but parrots and they should be treated as such. Anything else is ignorance or self-interest.

[Hookturn]

We'll as I said I am new to birds so I have to decide where to get my advice. It seems to me that Hartman has a long track record of raising and breeding birds. In fact his aviary is respected enough to have partnered with The Ohio State University veterinarian program. They use Hartmans to train vet students. And his in-house vet is a faculty member of OSU.

It's also interesting that you assume his position on taking parrots out is based on the fact that he sells harnesses. I would submit that it is just as likely the other way around. That is, he believes that parrots should be socialized so in order to do it safely he invented the harness.

Again, I don't know him and don't know you. But from my perspective the opinions of someone with his experience are worth considering. And I must say that it appears as if most of the viewpoints on issues like socialization are opinions. There seems to be little if any scientific studies relating to most of these issues. So people have their opinions most of which seem based on anecdotal observations. As such I think those with experience are worth considering on every side of every issue.

I don't know your credentials or experience level. I assume from your posts that you are very experienced with birds and, therefore, have an opinion worth considering as well. Put yourself in my shoes. I hear one opinion from you and differing opinions from other experienced bird people. So again I have to decide who to believe especially when it comes to issues like this where there are two completely opposite opinions. Also, I've read lots about the need to get parrots out in the world and socialize them but you're the only one I've come across this far who has a diametrically opposed opinion. But my guess is that there are lots of people who share your view.

I think that is why many new bird owners struggle with some of these issues. We don't have our own experiences to help guide us. The best we can do is research the issue and then make up our own minds.

[Exitos872]

Yup... what he said

[Wolf]

Indeed! This is one of those areas where there does not exist any scientific research at this present point in time and this leaves us foundering in a sea of opinion. There are good and bad opinions on both sides of this issue, opinions both pro and con that are based on tears of prior experience and opinions that are simply from proponents who have never taken the time to observe or think these issues through for themselves.
In this day and age, we have a world where many species of parrots are going the way of the Dodo bird and many more in danger of this due to the wanton destruction of their native habitat. The only way to slow this process down or to reverse it is to enact laws on a global scale that puts an end to the decimation of this valuable resource. And primarily due to the efforts of the mega glom corporations and big business, this is very unlikely to occur, at least in the foreseeable future.
Pajarita has some very legitimate concerns about the exposure of parrots to the stresses of a modern human jungle and its effects on these birds and most especially on the younger ones. Although she urges extreme caution when taking you bird out into this world that we have created, if you take the time to understand what she is saying, it is primarily with the baby birds and juveniles that she urges the most restraint with. This is a very valid argument as the young birds are most susceptible to the negative effects of the stress of being taken into and exposed to an unknown and terrifying world. Even in the wild these young birds are sheltered by their parents from too early of an exposure to the environment that they would naturally reside in. To me Pajarita's stance overall is quite simply to not expose your bird to unnecessary stress due to the negative effects that doing so has on them. There is absolutely nothing wrong with this position, especially in regards to the younger birds.
On the other side of the same coin, We have brought parrots out of their native environments due to the pet trade and due to our destruction of their habitat. These birds are captive species and are by no means domesticated and this means that all of their responses are the same as in the wild. But these birds and their offspring are never again going to live in the wild, and will over time become domesticated and acclimated to live in the human world and the urban jungle.
I think that we will need to socialize our birds to their new environment, which does mean exposure to varying numbers of people along with there attitudes and all that goes with this. One of the questions that we must answer is at what age should this socialization begin? Another is how much stress is too much and how do you tell so as to avoid overstressing the bird? There are many other related issues and questions that we each must answer and hopefully we will share the results of our activities with each other so that we can build on the available information so we can make better decisions as we go through this process and establish and maintain a record of both short and long term effects on our bird. Hopefully as responsible parrot owners we will pay very careful attention to the reactions of our charges so that we can refrain from overstressing them.
There are no adequate answers to when and how to go about the socializing of our birds into this totally new environment( to them ). We are going to have to make these decision based on our individual bird and our own experience or on any research that we do.

[Exitos872]

it may be pin feathers- there seems to be a lot now. i might take him to the vet just to be on the safe side.........

And may I be the first to say... hu?