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Sort of venting...Parrots who are alone?

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Re: Sort of venting...Parrots who are alone?

Postby TooLove » Wed Dec 10, 2014 5:01 pm

Pajarita wrote:I don't agree. There are people who are happy all the time. I am. Most people cannot be happy all the time because they don't make themselves happy (I am not talking about people living with pain, like you do, Wolf -that's a different issue). Animals, on the other hand, are physical beings and, as such, as long as they have everything nature decreed they should have can be happy all the time. But the main part of an animal's happiness is reproducing as they are supposed to and none of our parrots is able to fulfill that need -and no, breeder birds don't either and not only because they seldom choose their mates or because of the terrible conditions they live under but also because the breeders take the babies away from them every single time, time after time, year after year. And that has to be heartbreaking for them...


Pajarita, if you're truly happy all the time, I want whatever drugs you're taking.

I meant that no one can be ecstatically over the moon about life all the time. You (and our birds) can be generally happy the vast majority of the time, but you're going to get disgruntled every once in a while. You get a flat tire, sleep through your alarm, whatever little pet peeves get you going. My 'too was offended today because I did his nails. Wild birds have bad days too. Everyone gets transiently grumpy every so often, and it's only natural. If it becomes a standard state of mind, then it's a problem.

I agree with you that the breeding practices aren't exactly great. But humans are nothing more than animals either, with reactions and emotions to external stimuli so I'm not sure what you mean by animals being physical beings. There's an awesome book by Marc Bekoff called The Emotional Lives of Animals that does a great job of characterizing animal emotions from a non-anthropomorphic point of view. I don't necessarily know that heartbreaking would be his word of choice to describe how a breeding pair would feel after losing their clutch, but I would give it a read if you ever get a chance. It's very interesting and applicable to parrots, because they're so blatantly emotional as it is. :P
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Re: Sort of venting...Parrots who are alone?

Postby marie83 » Thu Dec 11, 2014 11:27 am

TooLove wrote:
Pajarita wrote:I don't agree. There are people who are happy all the time. I am. Most people cannot be happy all the time because they don't make themselves happy (I am not talking about people living with pain, like you do, Wolf -that's a different issue). Animals, on the other hand, are physical beings and, as such, as long as they have everything nature decreed they should have can be happy all the time. But the main part of an animal's happiness is reproducing as they are supposed to and none of our parrots is able to fulfill that need -and no, breeder birds don't either and not only because they seldom choose their mates or because of the terrible conditions they live under but also because the breeders take the babies away from them every single time, time after time, year after year. And that has to be heartbreaking for them...


Pajarita, if you're truly happy all the time, I want whatever drugs you're taking.

I meant that no one can be ecstatically over the moon about life all the time. You (and our birds) can be generally happy the vast majority of the time, but you're going to get disgruntled every once in a while. You get a flat tire, sleep through your alarm, whatever little pet peeves get you going. My 'too was offended today because I did his nails. Wild birds have bad days too. Everyone gets transiently grumpy every so often, and it's only natural. If it becomes a standard state of mind, then it's a problem.

I agree with you that the breeding practices aren't exactly great. But humans are nothing more than animals either, with reactions and emotions to external stimuli so I'm not sure what you mean by animals being physical beings. There's an awesome book by Marc Bekoff called The Emotional Lives of Animals that does a great job of characterizing animal emotions from a non-anthropomorphic point of view. I don't necessarily know that heartbreaking would be his word of choice to describe how a breeding pair would feel after losing their clutch, but I would give it a read if you ever get a chance. It's very interesting and applicable to parrots, because they're so blatantly emotional as it is. :P



I don't think it matters, the big difference is (for people that are mentally sound at any rate) that we can choose how to live our lives, yes responsibility sometimes gets in the way like having to go to a job we hate but we can choose to take steps to improve our jobs or switch jobs altogether. Sometimes it takes a while to achieve that because we cannot control the job market, sometimes we have to work hard by studying a new subject in order to change what's making us miserable but we do have a choice....

....captive parrots don't have that choice so we need to do everything we can to make their lives as fulfilling as possible because the animals are powerless to change their own lives.
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Re: Sort of venting...Parrots who are alone?

Postby DanaandPod » Tue Dec 30, 2014 9:17 pm

Thank you all for your responses. Well, the term happy is definitely up for interpretation as I read regarding both animals and humans. I disagree that anyone human can be happy all of the time based by my definition. Actually, it is a fact, again, by the definition that i know of. Just as our bodies are continually trying to keep balance therefor in flux. So to are our emotional minds. And, it takes constant work and changes and learning throughout ones life. And, then theres me... who is the latter mentioned and am working on recovering from anxiety imbalances. I agree that parrots and animals are more about survival and reproduction though. And, the more I learn, am sometimes wanting to unlearn because parrot keeping seems unfair and I hate that it isn't this happy look at me I have a pet all is great thing of an experience... like pet stores and breeders want people to think. However, its also true what Wolf wrote about forums mainly hearing about peoples problems and noone could possibly see their lives 24 hrs a day... and know of the good points with their bird keeping because they are not sharing what they are not on here with concerns asking about. Infact, I am glad i read this just now...because on my other post... I talked a little about this in response to the recommendation that I rehome my parrot due to not being home all day or having a companion for him and the fact that he is too bonded to me and is frustrated because i am not a parrot. Yet, nobody saw how this morning...when we were in the shower together how momentum captured him and he yoo hooed me to turn my shower back on because he was enjoying it/fluffed up feathers/flapping wings/drinking the water...so i did. Its one of those moments where we were definitely both enjoying it. However, in defense of those like Pajorita and Wolf who spend countless hours replying to others and myself to reach a level of education...it must be frustrating as well...because written words can account for certain disconnect and misunderstandings by those they are trying to reach. HOwever too, I am extremely and utterly attached to this bird though...and I know it may rivet some's belief that I am being selfish. But, I think it is entirely possible that he could be rehomed to someone who claims they will and yet takes less care and has even less one on one time even if they work from home. While I am making sure he has daily exercise and stimulation for at least a couple of hours to more. But, all the input seems to be indirect at the same time on here. Because on one hand Im reading that it is best if he is in a room with other parrots yet if he doesnt bond with them it could mean a problem of jealousy and unfairly fighting over me. I am wondering lately...If I could get one parrotlet? and have their cages near by. I am aware that they absolutely cannot be out of their cages at the same time together... however, does the parrotlet need as much out of cage time as parrots? If I were to give it an hour a day with stimulating one on one before letting pod out? This way, at least it is another bird for the other to hear and see when I am away...???? Or could this result in continuous yelling and obsession from Pod and the other? Sigh sigh sigh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Re: Sort of venting...Parrots who are alone?

Postby Wolf » Tue Dec 30, 2014 10:54 pm

Dana, this is the third attempt at writing this reply and I am still not sure that this attempt will stand up to my rereading of it and get to be read by anyone other than myself. I agree that your relationship with Pod may be just a bit too intimate for either one of you, and in that respect it is not a healthy relationship. Pod is seeing you as his mate and you simply can't fill that roll for him as much as he and perhaps you would like it to be otherwise. And it is for that reason that I think that acquiring him a mate would be beneficial.
I do not see that rehoming Pod would be a good thing for either one of you. I think that the relationship between the two of you developed in the manner that it has because of your needs more so than from Pods.
I once, had a relationship that was similar in many ways to yours and Pods and was advised by a mental health official to end it. I did and it is perhaps the biggest regret in my entire life. Was it for the best? I hope so, but I can't say that it improved my life at all.
The biggest problem with this whole thing is that even if you find Pod a possible mate there is no way to know beforehand that he will accept the new bird as a mate. Perhaps the only answer here is for you to work a bit on changing the dynamics of your relationship with pod so that he accepts you more as a friend or even as a parent figure more than as a mate and then live with it. You can provide him a good home with good healthy food and you can still love him just as much and perhaps you can give him a mate and in the long run have a pretty much happy life with each other. I know that the best that we can provide is not what they would have in their natural state but I don't buy in to the assumption that he can't be happy with his life most of the time. If I did I would have to put my birds down. I never tried to have birds in the first place and in fact did not want any, but Kiki, came and I could not leave her to die and as a result I have birds. I love these birds and they love me and I am certain of that. I give them the best that I can and they seem to be happy with that at least most of the time. Is it enough? I don't know but I do know that no one else can or will care for them the way that I do, so somehow it has to be enough.
And that, Dana, is where I think you are with Pod as well.
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Re: Sort of venting...Parrots who are alone?

Postby DanaandPod » Wed Dec 31, 2014 12:08 pm

Pod came to me after being rehomed several times. His cage has a dent that makes me think someone punched his cage...and knowing how he can scream and knowing that most people are inpatient...I can understand why. It also took me three days of periodic scrubbing to get the what I believe was a sticky cigarette film off of the entire thing. His beak was peeling. And, I was told that it had been a long time before anyone had either handled him or that his owner was home because he worked seven days a week building his business. I was not invited into his place because he said it was a mess...and I can only imagine since the bird cage smelled like cat urine when I brought him home. The guy brought Pod and his cage out to me. He didn't even have a single toy which is sad. Now he has a couple of swings, weekly exchange of toys, varying size perches. And, when I switched him off his seed diet (which basically I noticed he was only eating the sunflower seeds) to Dr. D's pellets his beak was no longer peeling. I was thrilled. I began to learn as much as I could and make changes. And, when I saw how intelligent he was... I found the parrot wizard because I knew I had to increase his stimulation and ability through some trick training. Emotionally, he came to me at a time of isolation. And, my ex whom is still a friend was sharing with me the details of his new girlfriend, of course not in any way to antagonize me, but still... lol... So, When the following morning after Pod's arrival...when I had wondered what in the heck I had done by bringing this animal into my apartment...!? I opened his cage door and He would immediately climb down and to me. I think our hearts ran to each other from our miseries maybe...and in the process saved each other. I promised him that he would never be abandoned again. It was quite the experience of getting to know him... I had no clue. He perched himself on the towel holder watching me scrub his cage clean in the bathtub. And, I just thought this animal is really figuring me out and this new environment. I had a whole couple of months with no agenda accept just bonding with him.... then gradually had picked up some hours and went to some classes at school... and everything seems okay... and continues to be for the most part...I have my morning routine with him...he gets some stimulation and exercise...not the best or greatest amount but it is daily. He does seem to have sepration anxiety but stops screaming when i am finally out the door. And, I have had some pretty bad bites that people have said they would not tollerate...but I take the bad with the good. And, yes...I do have to lock myself in another room to make a phone call...or washing the dishes is a complete aggrivation because he chirps at me the entire time to stop what im doing and pay attention to him. And, as everyone on here has said... he is not a happy camper when he is home alone. HOwever, I put light music on for him... and am doing my best. He is getting fresh fruit and well, peas and I will be ordering Tops since I love the sound of the ingredients in it. Solar light. I am also working on finding an even bigger cage thats not too expensive for me. A friend recently joked that I should just build a huge nest and sit on it with him. But, I don't think it is that extreme, lol. Especially with my hours away from home now. Infact, I don't possibly see how my relationship can be any less... or how exactly to change the dynamics. I do try to discourage the mating dance from him. But, with time limited... I include him on things like showers because it is one on one time. Plus, hes learned to whistle the Annie song in there. I was greatly confused with the back and forth talk and even greatly worried about him being alone after all the correspondences... but, if there is a chance that i get a bird and they don't bond... then it may be a disaster. Like Pajorita said because then it means finding how to divvy my time between two birds that cannot be out together on a schedule that well, according to yous isn't enough for one bird. But, this is where I have to make my own belief and choice because I know out of the hundreds and thousands of bird owners...I am trying my best and care a great deal about his welfare and he is getting more attention than many. He is used to it here. I know it would be traumatic for me to rehome him... but, I do believe it would be for him as well! I think at this point it is best to be home when i can... have all the environmental elements to make it as comfortable and stimulating as possible... I am thinking of getting a canary (obviously i wouldn't let it out with him...and it is another bird to care for...however, it is a great deal less maintance than a parrot I think... and I think I could find a time to let it out to fly etc. ) for added stimulation both for its song...but also some activity that can catch his eyes besides my fish tank here. In the future, maybe in a bigger place...differnt schedule...someone close by with a female they need to rehome...I am sure decisions could be made. But, even as of now... I searched maybe ten sites looking for a female poi and could not. Only one or two not willing to ship. But, I look at him...and no, he is not unhappy all of the time. Hardly. Usually, he looks like he is up to something and is on the go sneaking under my dresser...chasing a food bowl across the room, head diving in my rain boot... anything that is fun and oblivious to what would be human responsibility and worry. What I am getting out of all of the correspondences finally...is that there basically is no exact answer. That is I guess where my frustration came in. I couldn't understand why nobody could just tell me exactly the best thing and be done with it. Its just not that way with all of this, I guess. BTW, don't worry about my mental health after my dramatic description and sharing. I am like everyone who changes and is trying to always make better changes for myself and living. I think Pod will be not perfect maybe but okay too. :hatching:
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Re: Sort of venting...Parrots who are alone?

Postby Wolf » Wed Dec 31, 2014 1:00 pm

Apparently my last post did not come out as I intended it to. As for your anxiety, I had already noticed it and only meant that I understood, after you brought it up. I myself have some problems with depression due to life changes that interfere with my capacity to do thing in the manner I am accustomed to and the pain meds don't help with that part of it.
Any way I was saying that I don't think that rehoming Pod is the right answer, either. You seem to be doing ok, overall. Yeah, there are some areas that could use some work but perhaps time is the best answer for now. No there are no exact answers when dealing with such an intelligent being, sometimes all you can do is the best that you can and wait to see how it is going.
You have most of the answers that anyone can give you at this point in time, as even the experts don't really know much more. They have not done enough research and just don't have the answers. There will be a lot of misinformation and a lot of new information over the next several years as more studies are done and as those of us who have parrots come to understand our birds better.
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Re: Sort of venting...Parrots who are alone?

Postby DanaandPod » Thu Jan 01, 2015 3:34 am

Wolf, I appreciate that. A little off the bird topic, I would hate to think that you are in pain... Aside from that... Chia seed drink makes a difference in mood elevation. One cup water per three table spoons chia seed over night in the fridge and mixed with one cup of favorite juice in the morning is awesome and daily use leads to hightened mood.
I used to care for a couple of quadriplegic adults (paralyzed from the neck down.) both had to take part in raising their children in this state. One about three months ago...sent me a painting she did of a pet I had. She paints with a paint brush in her mouth and sells the the paintings through the foot and mouth association. but, what was astonishingly noticeable about both these two people was their ability to literally forget the past. Never to mention or think about when they were able to walk. I think that it was such traumatic accidents for them that in order to survive with the state they were in...and be a parent and spouse... as a wheel chair bound person...they had to never look back again. Wish I could do that. But, seems that the human mind is often more capable of things when they are pushed to the brink. Looking in the past leads to depression and looking to the future leads to anxiety. I suppose I would need something of such a severe event maybe to keep my mind out of the future so much where it does me no good. Anyway, try to stay positive. Happy New Year
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Re: Sort of venting...Parrots who are alone?

Postby Wolf » Thu Jan 01, 2015 8:42 am

I hear you, Dana !! I try to not think about it too much, but it is hard not to, when firstly the pain never eases up or most especially when I am trying to get something done. To make matters worse the only thing that slows the deterioration is to move and that makes it hurt worse. The depression stem from the feelings of being worthless more than from the pain itself. I was always active and doing things and I can't do that very much anymore.
I try to stay focused on the here and now as the past is gone and I can't change any of it, if I wanted to and the future is not here and although I can plan for it I really can't do much about future events which only leaves me the present and it is where I can do things, for me it is all I have. I just keep putting one foot in front of the other and hope that I stay out of my own way.
We all have out difficulties and must face them and walk with heart despite the obstacles we must deal with. We all must find that trust in ourselves to keep on keeping on, knowing that even in our blindness we will still find out way.
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Re: Sort of venting...Parrots who are alone?

Postby Pajarita » Thu Jan 01, 2015 2:08 pm

Happiness is a matter of definition. Problem is, people who are not happy measure it by the 'ups' of momentary happy excitement (a surprise party given in your honor, giving birth, getting married, winning the lotto, etc) which are just a piece of a happy life but which could also be part of an 'unhappy life'. Nobody can live in a constant state of euphoria, our bodies could not take it. Happiness, in my personal opinion, is liking yourself EXACTLY as you are, knowing that your life is worth it, that you are contributing (in whichever way this might be) to a better world, that, even if there are drawbacks, you can overcome them, that you have people to love and who love you in return, etc. It's the daily contentment of a life well lived and it's also doing what you like to do. Does everybody have this? No. Can everybody achieve it? Yes, under normal circumstances. People that live in a war zone, have no food, live in pain, see their relatives killed like flies and don't perceive a light at the end of the tunnel obviously cannot but it doesn't mean that circumstances will not change or that anybody living a 'regular' life could not get it if they set their mind to it. Because been 'happy' all the time is nothing but a state of mind and something we need to work on all the time. It's found inside yourself and entirely up to you to get to that point. Of course that sometimes we get grumpy, angry, disgusted, disappointed, etc but that doesn't mean we don't have a happy life. These are just the 'lows' that compensate for the 'highs' I mentioned before. If there was no lows, we would not appreciate the highs as much as we should. But even during the lows, we can look into ourselves and KNOW we have a happy life.

I have nothing in my past that depresses me. My first and second husbands were no good and I had to start with no family to help me (they were all back home), no job, no home, no money, in a strange country with a language that was not my first or even my second, and nothing but two suitcases three times in my life (and the third time I had a 3 year old child) and there were times when it was hard to keep on going but I did. I got a job, an apartment, I went to college at night, etc and I even had to live for many years without dogs which was pretty hard on me (I had birds and cats but no dogs). I had cancer and had to have surgery and radiation treatment, three of my children were 'difficult' (and that's an understatement when it comes to my middle daughter), I lost my house in Pennsylvania to foreclosure and had to admit that I simply could not continue doing animal rescue full time, etc. etc. Poop happens. It's part of life. But I've never done anything knowing it was the wrong thing to do and every set-back has been an excellent learning experience which ended up making my life richer and better (yes, bad husbands included). And, because I've gone through real hard times and overcame them, I've learned that there is absolutely nothing to be anxious about the future because I know for a fact that, regardless of how hopeless the situation might look, I will bounce back.

As to parrots and their plight in captivity... as with anything that depends on human beings, some have better lives than others but thinking that we are the ONLY ones that can provide them with good treatment is not realistic and quite arrogant if you think about it. My birds live cage-free in a room fitted just for them, have other birds for company and a number of them have mates, they eat a fresh food, organic diet made from scratch, are kept at a solar schedule and have good quality full spectrum lights, branches for perches, etc. etc but, even though my life revolves around their needs, I worry all the time and I am constantly looking for ways to improve their lot, I don't fool myself into thinking that I am the only one that can do this or that nobody can do it better because I know for a fact that there are better situations for them and I am not talking about been released to the wild, I am talking about fabulous sanctuaries like The Oasis, Foster Parrots or Best Friends where parrots live in flocks, have outdoor aviaries, etc.

One should never compare one's husbandry to worse ones... my husband does this all the time and it always aggravates me: "People keep them in cages" - "People just put out commercial food for them" - "People don't worry about the sun going down" and, my favorite: "People have normal lives" :lol: But I don't care how other people do it. I never compare my husbandry to other people's, I compare my parrots lives to the way Nature meant their lives to be. That's my bar. Needless to say, my husbandry is waaaay below Mother Nature's but I keep on trying and my birds lives have improved tremendously over the years. I also used to keep them in cages in human areas, to a human light schedule, give them bad food, etc. but I've learned and I've changed their living conditions. And I will continue to change and hopefully improve them even more.

The important thing is never to look at a pet parrot's life and say: "It's the best it has ever been" but instead say "It's not as good as it should be" - and never to put our feelings for them before their wellbeing. That and nothing else was what drove people to trap them and breed them to be used as human pets. It's selfish, it's self-centered, and it's plain wrong. I have in the past and will, most likely, rehome some of them in the future if I think that what I can offer them is not enough. Because loving them to pieces is not what makes the difference. Love does not trump all. One has to think of what's best for them and nothing else. And, yes, they do miss us at the beginning but they learn to love their new owners as much or more than they love us. We might be the center of their existence while they live with us but, give them a better situation and they will happily adjust to it.

And yes, toolove, parrots are heartbroken when the breeders steal their babies. Of course, one cannot 'see' inside an animal's brain but, then, we can't see inside another person's brain, either. We go by their actions and reactions, don't we? Well, it's the same with animals (and this is what Bekoff's work is mostly about). I've seen an OWA male stand close to his mate, a RLA female, which couldn't stand straight due to her handicap so she could lean her bad side on him (and he knew which side was her 'bad' one and went around to it to make it easy on her). And he did it all night long as well as for hours and hours and hours during the day. And I've seen a female GCC protect her mate, a peach fronted conure severely handicapped, and defend him from a larger bird even though this is usually what males do for their females. I might not be able to see inside their brain but I know these birds love their mates and not only don't abandon them when they are sick or hurt but actually figure out what they need and do it for them. As to them been heartbroken when their babies are taken... let me tell you a true story: a couple that bred macaws did not believe that their birds actually care that much when they heard it at a lecture so they put a camera inside their nest to see how they reacted to it and when the film showed them (mainly the mother but the father, too) scratching the material aside desperately looking for the babies and crying all night long the first night, and the mother refusing to leave the nest for two days, they were convinced and not only stopped breeding them but actually went around showing the film to other people. These are intelligent animals that love deeply, mourn the passing of their loved ones, can count and figure things out, do you really believe that they would not know that their babies have been stolen or that they would not feel the loss?
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Re: Sort of venting...Parrots who are alone?

Postby GreenWing » Thu Jan 01, 2015 7:10 pm

When I can't be at home during the day, "grandma" comes over to spend time with Chance. It's actually worked wonders. Chance loves her and it keeps her company. Also, I leave the radio on, too.

The only challenge is when I visited out of state for a weekend. Grandma still came over, but Chance was very angry. Trust, I got called all kinds of names when I came home. Chance did not like me being gone for that long.
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