Stitch attacking Leroy

[cml]

Problem:
About a week ago, Leroy and Stitch got into a fight (like they do sometimes, even being the best of brothers). Normally when they squabble, its over in a few seconds and then they go back to preening, but this time Stitch must have caught Leroy's eyelid with his claw, as Leroy had a wound there after the fight. The wound didnt bleed, so we cleaned it and have kept it clean, vet was also contacted. It has healed now, and never got infected.

BUT, since that fight, they dont get along at all. Everytime we've tried to have them out, it has resulted in Stitch the very first second they are let out, diving towards Leroy and chasing him all around the house. Leroy has during these outings crashlanded in many places, so we've had to intervene and put a stop to it. We've tried this three times, with the same results, even when changing things up; such as removing me, or my wife from the room - should it be jealousy issues, as well as leaving them alone. We have also tried them meeting in rooms they are not in as much as well as in the living room which is where they usually hang out. Nothing gave any other results than Stitch going for Leroy the first second he could.

Usual behaviour
Stitch and Leroy usually love each other and has for the past 3 years since we got Leroy. They eat together, play together, get into mischief together, preen each other, and only occasionally squabble.
The normal situation in their relationship is that Stitch is the little brother (even if he's older) that is annoying sometimes, but Leroy commanding more respect being slightly bigger (especially when he puffs his feathers). Leroy is NEVER aggressive, and even if he can tell Stitch to get off a perch or whatever, he will never chase after or the like.

Both birds hit sexual maturity last spring, so its not that we are seeing here.

Trying to establish what was wrong I started to analyze their food etc:
The birds are as many of you know on a diet where they have pellets for one meal, and fresh veggies and fruit for the other. The greens vary each day to ensure a very varied diet.
I weigh each bird quite often (and have been doing it since I got them, so I have lots of data), and Leroy is at his target weight (only a few percent over), but Stitch has gained weight in the past few months. I must admit to not weighing them as often lately as they kept their weight so well. It seems however that Stitch has had a bit too much dinner and a few treats too many and he's now 17% overweight which is unacceptable. I realized this when I weighed him a couple of days ago, so after the fight.
He's on a leaner diet since yesterday with less protein until he's back in shape. I suspect the overweight might make him more hormonal.



Lighting:
We follow a solar schedule as much as it is possible here at my latitude, but during winter (like now) it is impossible, so I try to emulate it with shortening the days during fall, and then even more during winter.We are also using less light for the first hour in the morning and evening.
I realise this is not ideal, but it's the best we can do at our latitude. A full solar schedule would result in the birds being awake for only about 5 hours at this time a year, but with some emulating we have them awake for about 10hrs winter time.

Misc:
Both me and my wife have been at home a little more than usual, I've been on sick leave for a few weeks due to surgery but I am back working half time again, which the birds hardly notice (since they wake up only about an hour before I get home). I will be back to full time in another week. My wife has not worked full time since we got our birds and is home quite a lot, due to severe migraine. The birds are thus used to having her home a lot.

My reasoning is this:
I think their relationship changed during that fight, and Leroy who's always been the one commanding more respect now runs away. Stitch either thinks its fun to chase him, or he's holding a grudge against Leroy, though I am puzzled as to what it could be. Usually if Stitch started attacking Leroy, Leroy just snapped back and that was it, Stitch backed off and they were back to preening. Their status quo has changed. Lets not argue about pack mentality in parrots here as its a very heated topic, but its obvious here that Leroy has gone down in rank and Stitch now considers himself on top. Whether its because of pack mentality or something else is kind of irrelevant, what is important is that we find a way to work around this as they thrive together and love hanging out. I miss seeing them like that, and I want to do what I can to make it so again.

Thank you for your time and help!

[liz]

It is that time of the year. I broke up a fight that scared the snot out of me. They were on top of the cage and all I saw was green feathers and heard awful screaming. I could not tell where one bird ended and the other began. I grabbed outside feathers on both side and pulled them apart.

Because Myrtle can fly she has an advantage over Rambo but she knows "you be nice to Rambo". And if she doesn't we run her away and talk sweet to him. Sort of elevating him again. She has decided to be nice just to keep from being run off. Because Myrtle is flighted I can just flip her away from his direction.

I don't know that that helps. Your two always got along better than mine because they were more equal in ability.

[Wolf]

Hi cml;
I know that you are discounting the theory that this may be more hormonal than not, but I am not so sure that this is correct. I suppose that it is possible that there is a grudge being held, but I don't think that I am buying that either. This leaves my primarily with one avenue to explore and that is diet.
We both already know that I am nota big fan of pellets, but although I am not interested in creating a debate over feeding pellets or not, my first area in looking at food as a possible causation of Stitch's aggressiveness is the pellets and more specifically in whether or not their pellets contain soy products and if so how much. With this in mind may I inquire as to what pellets you are feeding them?

[cml]

Thanks for your input Wolf, I am not discounting food as a theory though:

It seems however that Stitch has had a bit too much dinner and a few treats too many and he's now 17% overweight which is unacceptable. I realized this when I weighed him a couple of days ago, so after the fight.
He's on a leaner diet since yesterday with less protein until he's back in shape. I suspect the overweight might make him more hormonal.

This is actually my main suspicion, I think his overweight might make him more hormonal - which in turn might make him more aggressive. Perhaps I worded it in a sub-optimal way .

Regarding his food, here's more info: He gets roughly 10 pellets each morning (Totally Organics Pellets), his majority of food is his evening veggies and fruit. This has lead to him keeping his weight very well, but I must confess to adding more pellets in the morning out of complacency which is likely the cause of his increased weight. This is corrected now.

Evening meals consist of:
Monday: Peas, mango and broccoli
Tuesday: Corn, Chili, raspberries, brusselsprouts
Wednesday: Cauliflower, carrots, apple and oatmeal
Thursday: Peas, sweetpotatoes, cran berries
Friday: corn, carrots and banana
Saturday:Cauliflower, strawberries, corn and oatmeal
Sunday: what the kitchen can offer

Everything is organic btw, as is almost everything we eat in our house!

Hope that helps!

[Wolf]

No, your wording was fine, I was and am aware that you had not discounted food as being a causative in this turn in events. I was just stating my thoughts and was looking at the possibility of soy being involved as one of the effects of soy can be an increase in aggressiveness. I am also happy to know that that is not a factor. However, thank you for the rest of the dietary information. I don't know exactly what I will find there until I run all of these items through to find out their nutritional content and since I just downloaded some nutritional programs to assist me in doing that type of calculation and haven't even had the opportunity to check them out yet, I can't even guess how long that it will take provided that the programs are even capable of what I am wanting them to do.
Since Kiki's arrival at the house, I have had to do a crash course on parrots and nutrition is a difficult area to get much valid information about. Like most other people that have parrots, I have been stuck with trying to use sheer variety of foodstuffs to provide proper nutrition for my birds, but I really don't like that method. I don't mind providing a large variety of foods for them but that doesn't insure that they are receiving the proper nutrition, at least in my mind. I am thinking that if I can come up with some basic nutritional information concerning the food ingredients themselves that I have a better chance of not under or over supplying them with the right vitamins, minerals, proteins, carbs and so forth and achieving a better balance of all these things.
This is a totally new process for me and as of now, I am not even sure of what I am going to find, but I will let you know as soon as I can, what I find.

[Pajarita]

I also think it's hormonal but I don't think it's the diet as a whole. I would switch the meals giving them the pellets for dinner and the veggies, with some added whole grains, for breakfast so they fill fuller at night when they have no opportunity to go back for more (which they would during the day) but I don't think that this is the reason for the aggression. I think it's their age and the light schedule. Have they both been DNA'd males through a blood test conducted by an independent lab? I know you try to emulate one but do you make the lengthening and shortening of the day gradually (only 15 minutes a week?) and end up with a noticeable difference (like 10 hours one way and 14 of the other?)? Do you use a good full spectrum light during the day and a red lower light both in intensity and angle right before you turn it off completely? I would try that but, unfortunately, if it is hormones as I think it is, this is a bad time to start regulating photoperiod because we are now going into breeding season and it is exactly this precise time of the year that the birds register the difference (we are now at 23 minutes longer daylight from the solstice and we know that they register, at least, 20 minutes).

[cml]

Thank you Wolf, and that sounds like a good strategy for Kiki! If you find something, please let me know.

Pajarita, I will try to answer your questions (and statements) below. Thanks for your input.

Have they both been DNA'd males through a blood test conducted by an independent lab?

Yes, both have had DNA tests done through blood and they are both male.
(on Stitch its also quite evident since White Fronted Amazons differ in their coloring between male and female (red shoulders on males), they are the only species of Amazon that have visual differences between the sexes as far as I know).

Do you use a good full spectrum light during the day and a red lower light both in intensity and angle right before you turn it off completely?

Yes we use two 100W full spectrum lights (I cant recall the temp on them and cant find the packaging, but I researched before buying), and yes, we use two red lamps (about 25W each) for dawn and dusk and are placed at table top level.

do you make the lengthening and shortening of the day gradually (only 15 minutes a week?) and end up with a noticeable difference (like 10 hours one way and 14 of the other?)?

No, not anymore because I forgot to sometimes change it. I change it either 30min bi-weekly or 1 hour per month. Maybe that is one of the reasons? We actually do end up with exactly 10 hours in winter and 14 hours during summer though!

I would try that but, unfortunately, if it is hormones as I think it is, this is a bad time to start regulating photoperiod because we are now going into breeding season and it is exactly this precise time of the year that the birds register the difference (we are now at 23 minutes longer daylight from the solstice and we know that they register, at least, 20 minutes).

Aye, I know, spring is hopefully soon upon us and I was going to start making the days longer soon. Do you suggest to hold that off or should we start with elongating the days with 15min per week?

I would switch the meals giving them the pellets for dinner and the veggies, with some added whole grains, for breakfast so they fill fuller at night when they have no opportunity to go back for more (which they would during the day)

This will unfortunatly not be possible in the long term when I am back to work full time. I usually prepare their breakfast in the evening and put it into their cage just before their sleep time. They wake up long after I've gone to work, so pellets is the only option for their breakfast meal. Ordinary though, they do not however eat during the day as their ration is such that they eat up their breakfast (or at least it was until I got a bit complacent, which I've now corrected.)

[cml]

Liz, thanks for your support as well!

[liz]

Prefab their breakfast. I put grain (they love Farro) of all kinds in a thermal cup then pour boiling water on it and close it up. I wait 15 to 20 minutes but you could do it the night before and serve it room temperature. Grain doubles in size when it swells. I went in the diet section and bought all the grains listed. I even bought some I don't know including the one that starts with a Q.

I put it piled up in the middle of a small plate. The dig through it and go for the Farro first then eat the rest. All accepted it but Phoenix. He is just now starting on the dry mixture.

[Wolf]

Actually I do this for all of them, I just blame it all on Kiki, because she was the first bird in our lives and we did not go and get her and had no idea that she even existed until she buzzed us when we went outside one morning.