The Parrot Pyramid

[entrancedbymyGCC]

I tend to order things in my pyramid in order of 'if one of these things were taken away, how much of an effect would it have on the bird's health and wellbeing'. I like the way your pyramid is, but I'm tempted to switch the 'Freedom from hazards, etc.' with the Mental Needs and Social and Physical Needs. That may be because I'm reading it differently than you mean. If the 'Freedom from hazards, etc.' means that the bird feels comfortable, safe, and secure in it's environment then I fully agree with your pyramid. Just when I read your description it makes me think of hazards, health care, etc. from the person's point of view, ie what we view as hazards, not necessarily what the bird views as a hazard.

Could you clarify how you're intending it?

I meant it more the latter way, but I see your point as well, and I'll have to think about that a bit. I may fix all the spelling mistakes someday anyway. LOL.

[entrancedbymyGCC]

Changing their body will result in negative consequentes for the bird.

I understand that you believe that, but can you supply evidence of those negative consequences in a measurable/objective form? How do we observe those negative consequences?

[oknuma]

heeh just putting this here to be arugmentative but saying parrots were built to fly or similar is a generalisation

the kakapo is a parrot and it is flightless

[PRD]

Changing their body will result in negative consequentes for the bird.

I understand that you believe that, but can you supply evidence of those negative consequences in a measurable/objective form? How do we observe those negative consequences?

Well, yes and no. I can produce calculations in which i can prove that a wingsurface will carry more load when it's reduced to let's say 75% of it's original(and no other changes to the craft). That the increasement of the mechinical movement of its wing will produce more mechanical stress on its wing can also be proven by figures.
How we observe it is an interestng question which occupies me quite a bit. Because i am not a vet, nor a pilot, i dont have any experience with clipped birds and i only have experience with south american parrots i can only guess. I can say different things.
First of all, there are different types of parrots. Some have better aerodynamics, others have a longer tail, some are large, some are small. I think the effect on all types could be different.
The small parrots need less air cause of their weight to take off, so they would have to be clipped more for instance. I am still working on that part(and everything else)
Looking at my worst flying bird, he is clipped by 1 side. Nobody would even notice the effects it has on the bird. 1 wing is producing more lift then the other. That means making turns 1 way is piece of cake, the other way is a bitch! 1 way he can bank quite alot, the other way he has to be carefull not to bank to much, and will make a wider turn. Producing the same amount of lift with 2 different wingareas requires alot of skills, its like flying a twin engine aircraft on 1 engine. 1 wing will flap more then the other. This will also cause a disbalans, which is undesiarable cause of the mechanical movement of the wings.
Looking from the plane perspective i can say this: Planes dont deal with the mechanical stress as birds, except the helicopter. It needs alot of maintenance and replacement, so i think birds have the advantage that they grow new feathers. I would expect a wing flapper who cant gain altitude and flaps alot to move around to break its fwingseather quiker if they would fall of their perch and would try to fly but instead would hit the cage with their wings and break some feathers. This is an assumption i make. The fact is that higher mechanical stress will result in a higher wearage. I dont know if this would effect the bones, the featherstructure, it's joints or any other part of it's body. If this happens its easy to say he fell and broke his feathers. I have read that on several occasions, also problems with joints. If the bird is on a bad diet, its easy to say thats the bad diet that caused it. Nobody considers the possibility of wearage of the birds structure.
I have also read that up to 80% of bird problems are due to a bad diet. I suspect that in this 80% to be causes that could be a result of not flying, but could look as a bad diet problem. As everybody is focussed on clipping and pellets, nobody considers lack of flying. If some1 cant prove me otherwise i cant exclude these factors. Unless we know the symptoms we cant prove anything. But we can look at planes what could be/is the result, give me 1 reason why it would be otherwise on birds.

I have seen mechanical birds on internet which people build and fly using a small battery. Our birds also make this mechanical movement with their wings. U should try to do the same thing with that 'bird'. Just 'clipping' the wings wouldnt help, u would have to have the correct speed of the wings to go with it. If u succeeded in that, fly it till it breaks. Do the same with a non clipped 'bird', im sure it would last longer.
If u succeeded in that then comes the challenge. Try to 'clip' 1 wing, adjust the proper speed and try to fly it.

I try to keep it as objective as i can. What bothers me a bit are 2 things: all the attention about how to clip a bird, when to cllip a bird, how safe it is etc. I have been to a 1day couse where they didnt mention the flight of parrots once! Not only that, but stating that's dangerous for birds to fly inside a house... How objective is that?
The second: I have spend quite some hours on the internet, looking for evidence to support what i'm thinking. I find it hard to believe it's not written/described somewhere so i will keep looking for more info. I also have bought a book specific about flight of birds, and explaining the differences and similaritys between birds and aircrafts. So i hope in these months to gather enough information to see what consequentes it has on the bird.

I dont know if u know this article, but i think its a good article.
http://www.parrothouse.com/pamelaclark/ ... light.html

[Michael]

I agree with you on pretty much everything except you compare flight in clipped vs. unclipped birds. You forgot that clipped birds don't try to fly after a certain point. Every time they tried to fly and fell was punishing so through operant conditioning they quickly learn not to fly. So unfortunately I don't think that the wing stress argument in flight really applies to clipped parrots.

In the meantime I have been watching how Kili handles stress since she has been flighted. Except for something majorly startling, when Kili was clipped she was forced to deal with things she was afraid of. Most of the time I don't know that she if afraid of something be it a box or noise outside. Now, when she is out and dealing with novelty she can fly away from something she is scared of (which alerts me and makes it perfectly clear that it is something she is scared of) and gives me opportunities to deal with it. If it's something I don't care about her being scared of, say a box or a guest, then I just leave her out and usually curiosity will get her and she'll make flybys to check it out and eventually land closer and closer to whatever it is but at her own pace. On the other hand, if it is something I need her to work with, I know from her fly away that it scares her and can use my taming techniques to help her overcome her fear rather than forcibly flooding her with it all at once by not realizing the fear when the parrot is clipped.

I think (don't have specific evidence but just from talking to people) that people with clipped/unflighted (not clipped but not let out of cage to fly anyway) parrots tend to have more aggression issues. Either it is because they don't understand how to manage their parrot and thus don't understand how to manage aggression (parrot can't fly so owner can't tell when it wanted to fly away so it bites instead) or owners who clip parrots tend to do less training. Owners who have flighted parrots probably require more taming/training in order to maintain control of their parrot and maintain a relationship. The clipped parrot I am sure requires just as much training, attention, etc but people take their ability to control the parrot for granted because it cannot get away. I see far more people with clipped parrots using forceful methods for controlling their parrot than people with flighted parrots. I see a lot more punishment, flooding, and negative reinforcement of clipped parrots than flighted ones. You just don't get away with those kinds of things on a flighted parrot like you do with a clipped one cause it will just always fly away from you if you take things too far. On the clipped parrot, the stress must be equal if not greater (because it wants to get away but can't) but instead the parrot becomes aggressive to deal with its fears rather than fleeing. Fleeing doesn't hurt us (perhaps emotionally but not physically) but biting does. While I believe the other flight arguments are more important/appealing, I think the aggression and training issues are more concrete and can be observed.

[entrancedbymyGCC]

Well, yes and no. I can produce calculations in which i can prove that a wingsurface will carry more load when it's reduced to let's say 75% of it's original(and no other changes to the craft).
That the increasement of the mechinical movement of its wing will produce more mechanical stress on its wing can also be proven by figures.

Well, sure... if clipping didn't make flight difficult, we wouldn't do it. The question is, does that cause actual harm to the bird -- do they get, for example, wing arthritis at a higher rate than flighted counterparts? I could try to make some interesting calculations, too, but the question is really not one of mechanics but of biology and psychology. The physics is the easy part!

Looking at my worst flying bird, he is clipped by 1 side.

This would be considered bad clipping even among those who most strongly advocate clipping. A good clip is symmetric and allows the bird to glide to the ground with good control. It limits flight, but aims to allow control over the degree of flight which remains.

. I would expect a wing flapper who cant gain altitude and flaps alot to move around to break its fwingseather quiker if they would fall of their perch and would try to fly but instead would hit the cage with their wings and break some feathers.

But does this actually happen often? I've never seen it, or heard someone say it happened, it would be useful to have some data. As you say, at this point it is an assumption.

I have also read that up to 80% of bird problems are due to a bad diet. I suspect that in this 80% to be causes that could be a result of not flying, but could look as a bad diet problem. As everybody is focussed on clipping and pellets, nobody considers lack of flying. If some1 cant prove me otherwise i cant exclude these factors.

I can see where you could make a case to blame obesity on lack of flying, but I understand most of the problems caused by poor diet are things like vitamin deficiencies, egg production issues, that sort of thing. Boredom related behavior problems, again you could make a case that flying could alleviate those where whatever enrichment is being offered by the owner is somehow insufficient.

Not only that, but stating that's dangerous for birds to fly inside a house... How objective is that?

It is hard to find objective statistics, but I have found several websites by avian vets and comparable professionals which state that in their experience household accidents which involve flying are in the top three causes of death among pet parrots they have treated or worked with. This is anecdotal, but is at least coming from people with a potentially statistically significant sample. Among the occurrences I have found mentioned are incidents with ceiling fans, flying into open water and drowning, flying into closed windows, flying out open windows and meeting with disaster before finding the way home, flying into boiling pots or open flame, getting under a cover or cushion and being crushed. I will grant you that a careful person can mitigate against these types of hazards and also that even a clipped parrot needs to be handled with caution in terms of getting into trouble. And there are plenty of stories of clipped parrots being caught by a stray breeze and flying off,never to be found again. It isn't so much that they don't want to come home, but that they may get lost or disoriented, and may tangle with something they have no experience to handle before finding their way home.

I dont know if u know this article, but i think its a good article.
http://www.parrothouse.com/pamelaclark/ ... light.html

It is a reasonably balanced article. I don't agree with all the arguments the author makes (for example, implying that birds "fly away" because they are unhappy) but it's not foaming at the mouth and it makes some good points.

[PRD]

I agree with you on pretty much everything except you compare flight in clipped vs. unclipped birds. You forgot that clipped birds don't try to fly after a certain point. Every time they tried to fly and fell was punishing so through operant conditioning they quickly learn not to fly. So unfortunately I don't think that the wing stress argument in flight really applies to clipped parrots.

The thing is, u could cut off its wings, it will still flap its wings. I have seen several vid's of clipped birds trying to fly. The other thing to consider is i talk about clipping wings, good or bad, alot or just a bit. There is a point where they bird would fall, there is a point where the bird can can glide, etc. Flapping causes this mechanical stress, so unless no flapping at all i would have to say there would be no mechanical stress.
I have seen on several occasions clipped birds flapping their wings. When i was on my 1 day parrotcourse they had several clipped parrots. I noticed an amazone who was calm, but 2 african greys who were quite busy, climbing, flapping, eating. I also seen it with a parrotowner meeting, clipped birds flapping their wings. As i dont have a clipped non flying bird i cant say what effect it will have on a bird. But if flapping daily frequently it's under more stress then it's build for!
As its their nature to fly, and they strech their wings, i can understand that they still flap their wings.
All i am saying is, looking at a wing and laws of nature it seems more likely to cause harm then do good.

Well, sure... if clipping didn't make flight difficult, we wouldn't do it. The question is, does that cause actual harm to the bird -- do they get, for example, wing arthritis at a higher rate than flighted counterparts? I could try to make some interesting calculations, too, but the question is really not one of mechanics but of biology and psychology. The physics is the easy part!

I think u just said something important. The fact that the emphasis is not on flying explains it all for me. If some1 can prove to me that studies have been done where they dont register a higher wingload due to clipping/mechanical stress i can agree. I have also read some text of a book which they clearly talk about and explain the working of flying bird wings and talk about the mechanical stress on wings of flying bird in general. So unless someone can prove that clipping results in less mechanical stress i can't assume otherwise. Why do people assume it doesnt have any effect on the wings, just by looking at your parrot? Thats also an assumption, based on yout eyes. But your eyes dont see everything.

. I would expect a wing flapper who cant gain altitude and flaps alot to move around to break its fwingseather quiker if they would fall of their perch and would try to fly but instead would hit the cage with their wings and break some feathers.

But does this actually happen often? I've never seen it, or heard someone say it happened, it would be useful to have some data. As you say, at this point it is an assumption.

As i am not a vet, i cant say this if it happens alot. But i have read this. I also read about a womans pyrrhura who keeps falling of his climbing tree and tries to fly. I have also seen video's of clipped birds trying to fly.
Dont forget: a clipped bird who still can fly good can perform good and gain altitude can become a non gaining altitude flyer when wet.
What effect will it have on a bird who has eggs? I read dutch forums all day, and i see people regularly breed with their tame lovebirds in their house. So this clipped bird, who is already clipped more cause he is small, now is also heavier. There are alot of circumstances involved in this, and i mean alot.

Alot of birdproblems start with the owner. If we teach a owner how to clip a bird, what a bird needs to eat, all the attention it needs, its unsafe for a parrot to fly inside,all the things ive learned on mt 1 day course but we dont teach them how to handle flying birds inside the house i can see that taking a flying bird into an unsafe environment can cause harm to the bird. So if u say there are more accident happening with birds in the house lets start by start teaching people how to handle flying birds instead of encouraging them to clipping them. A bird is designed to escape predators, in flight while being wet in a tropical rainforrest. Flying inside a house is a piece of cake for them.

The fact that a clipped bird can still fly away on alot of occasions, despite all the emphasis on wingclipping, proves to me that we are trying to control something we cant control. Like i already said before, it takes years of study, windtunneltesting en tesflights to make modifications to airplanes.

[Michael]

I'm sorry, and as much as I think birds should be flighted, I don't think your arguments are right. It is the secondary wing feathers that are predominantly used in a bird to create lift while primaries are predominantly used for thrust. Wing clipping is more akin to cutting down or completely cutting off the propeller on an airplane rather than cutting the wings shorter. That being said, with a source of thrust, the speed of flight required to glide could well be increased and it can lead to many other issues. However, I really do not think that the wing stress is the core component of it. In fact, most clipped parrots exercise by gripping their perch and flapping their clipped wings. Because of trimmed feathers, the wings produce less thrust so in fact there is less drag to fight to flap them. If the parrot is not flying, flapping clipped wings is easier. And as I said, most over-clipped or poor-flighted-when-clipped parrots just learn not to fly. Believe me, when Kili was clipped she did not try to fly. In the year she was clipped she probably had not attempted to fly more than a dozen times. She knew that she just couldn't do it so she didn't try. On the other hand clipped cockatiels and budgies are so light that they can fly even with clipped wings but they just don't get very far. Since they tire out quicker than a not-clipped bird, they just stop flying sooner.

[entrancedbymyGCC]

Wing flapping in a clipped bird is exercise -- some books advocate encouraging it as such, but it doesn't lead to flight, it just exercises the wing and the bird, sort of like jogging in place I suppose.

I also think that there is one big difference between a mechanical system and a biological system -- a biological system can adapt. Both the behaviors and the body itself can change. Bone remodels (at least in mammals) when the stresses on it change. You can use physics to analyze the stresses on a structure instantaneously, but you have to look to biology to understand what that does to the body over time.

[PRD]

I'm sorry, and as much as I think birds should be flighted, I don't think your arguments are right. It is the secondary wing feathers that are predominantly used in a bird to create lift while primaries are predominantly used for thrust. Wing clipping is more akin to cutting down or completely cutting off the propeller on an airplane rather than cutting the wings shorter. That being said, with a source of thrust, the speed of flight required to glide could well be increased and it can lead to many other issues. However, I really do not think that the wing stress is the core component of it. In fact, most clipped parrots exercise by gripping their perch and flapping their clipped wings. Because of trimmed feathers, the wings produce less thrust so in fact there is less drag to fight to flap them. If the parrot is not flying, flapping clipped wings is easier. And as I said, most over-clipped or poor-flighted-when-clipped parrots just learn not to fly. Believe me, when Kili was clipped she did not try to fly. In the year she was clipped she probably had not attempted to fly more than a dozen times. She knew that she just couldn't do it so she didn't try. On the other hand clipped cockatiels and budgies are so light that they can fly even with clipped wings but they just don't get very far. Since they tire out quicker than a not-clipped bird, they just stop flying sooner.

Well Michael, here is the part where its getting interesting.
First of all, a flying plane as a parrot develops drag, its wing also. But it develops 2 kinds of drag. The sum of the is the total drag. Since the bird has a forward motion, as the wing, and the wing has a upward/downward motion, both types of drag are applicable to my knowlegde.
Saying that, a clipped bird which doesnt fly i expect the drag will decrease. I say expect, cause even though they dont fly, by flapping they will create lift. Not enough for flight, but they will creat lift thus drag. This means, cause he doesnt have his winglets anymore(outher feathers also function as winglets just as on airplanes) and that will ncrease drag. So i expect it will decrease, but i cant say how much. It wont decrease as much as one would expect. However, for a flying, even gliding bird this is different not only cause of the forward motion but also cause the extra drag caused by missing the winglets.

Ive been searching on the internet for more theory of flight of birds, in particulr parrot,s but its something that's not well studied/documented. I have bought 2 books which gives some of the theory, i am studying it at the moment. All i can say that it's not as easy as it looks. Give me some time, i will be back on this whole issue.

I also believe that a parrot will know its limits if its overclipped. About the gripping, it's the not gripping, but let loose of its grip that gives the parrot its perch exersize. But i cant see that exersize(flapping, gripping) being better for the bird then flying.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parasitic_drag

Even though we(living creatures) can adapt, most of the time it will take time to adapt. Nature adapted some flying birds to non flying birds, but they didnt adapt in 1 clip.
We can also adapt to a certain limit...