Plucking Senegal

[aquagreen]

I have a female senegal who is 5 1/2. She started plucking herself a bit around 2 1/2 years ago. It took me a while to figure out (not ever having seen that problem before) that was what she was doing, and by the time I did, I was baffled as to how to handle it. I've tried a lot of fruitless things over the years, and she has slowly worsened.

Recently she has dramatically worsened; I'm seeing a lot of feather pieces at the bottom of her cage, and her white patches are increasing. I know this coincided with a change in my work schedule; my hours increased, and there isn't much I can do about it. My husband is home during the day, and I encourage him to spend a lot of time with her, but he runs a business from home and can't always spend as much time with her as he'd like. Whereas I used to be away most of the day on Mondays and Wednesdays, we can now add Fridays to that as well. She's not enjoying it, and it's stressing me out enormously.

I've tried using AviCalm faithfully to see if that would help, and at first she grew a new tail feather...but that has since disappeared. I then learned that the toys I've been trying to give her to redirect her plucking are probably only teaching her that plucking is even more fun. Unfortunately, those are the only types of toys she has ever shown an interest in; she loves to shred things, and now that I know the toys I'm providing her with are no good, I don't know what to give her. Aren't all toys based on chewing? I don't even know where to begin with getting her to use puzzle-based toys; she ignores those and I don't know how to get her to interact with them.

I have started clicker training with her, but I'm in the very early stages of that, so I don't know how that's going to go. She has no other behavioral issues (and I don't see the plucking as a behavioral issue; she is upset and has a right to be, and even though I don't like it, I recognize it is a symptom of anxiety), so this is the thing we need to overcome.

She has been brought to the vet over the years to address the issue. She has no underlying health problems; I have long since realized that this is mostly hormonal, and I am trying my best to establish that I am not her mate. Her diet is good (pelleted, with fruit and veggies on the side and occasional bread for a treat).

The question is, where do I go from here? What exactly should I be doing? Do I have any hope of ending her problem? I'd appreciate anyone's advice.

Oh, and I'd also love to get her a full-spectrum light, but I tried that once before and unknowingly put it too close to her cage and she developed a freckle underneath one eye. It frightened me when I realized I'd had it in the wrong spot; I don't want to hurt her vision. Unfortunately I suffer from anxiety myself and now I'm afraid to give her a lamp at all. I know my own anxiety issues are likely affecting hers; I'm doing my best to be conscious of that.

Currently I just feel awful and frustrated. She's my baby and she's ripping herself apart.

[Wolf]

I know that some people swear by this Avi-Calm, but I don't much care for it. when my Grey came to me she plucked and self mutilated and she was on this product and was having seizures until I took her off of it. This is why I don't like it and I am aware that these are two different species of parrot although they have overlapping territories in their natural environment. If there are no underlying issues causing the plucking the you need to come to terms with this being a behavioral issue, and it has gone on for long enough that it may be a behavioral issue even if it did not begin that way.
The problem with full spectrum lighting is that they are primarily made for the reptile industry and not for birds. You have to be very careful in choosing a full spectrum light for your bird it needs to have a CRI of 94* with a K Temp of 5000 to 5500 degrees with a UV output of 2 or less. Even with these precautions I do not recommend placing them any closer to the bird than 3 feet.
While diet may be affecting the plucking issue through having soy as well as artificial vitamins and possibly dyes and preservatives in the pellets, I think that the primary reason for this plucking issue is lack of personal attention with her chosen human.
If this is a hormonal issue then her diet is too high in protein and she is not on a solar light schedule with full exposure to the twilight periods of dawn and dusk. These twilight periods are used by the bird to regulate their internal biological clock. The excess protein in the diet is keeping her hormone level too high.
I don't know what toys you are providing her to use. Also what kind of business does your husband run from the home? I am looking for a way to increase the time that she is near her humans to help ease the stress that is causing the plucking issue. So I apologise if it appears that I am prying, that is not my intent.

[aquagreen]

Thank you, Wolf.

I've felt wary of the AviCalm even though I hadn't found anyone complaining about its safety, but I would rather not have my bird on anything. I tried it out of desperation. My vet had suggested before that we try medicating her, but I didn't want to do that, so I said no.

Thanks for the info on full-spectrum lighting. For reference, I have her on Roudybush daily maintenance pellets, and from time to time Harrisons fine (though she seems to eat around it). She only gets organic veggies and fruit. Still, her feathers are dull. I'm afraid to bathe her at all because we had a horrible episode with that in the past and for nine months she would absolutely not let me touch her, and cowered in fear when I was around. It broke my heart and I spent a lot of time gaining her trust back. From time to time she will hop into her water dish and bathe herself.

Not sure what you mean by being on a solar light schedule...I try to give her 10-12 hours of darkness each night. When I wake up I uncover her, and when it begins to get dark she goes up to the top of her cage and hangs upside down to let me know she wants to sleep, and then I put her cage cover on. I *do* have her cage next to my computer desk so that she's close to me during the day when I'm home, but I worry about this working against her at night, as I am usually on my computer late.

As far as toys, she tends to only show interest in "crunchy" type items that make a loud sound when chewed. Currently I give her toys with a lot of crispy rafia, but not a lot of dye (if any). I did have a feathered toy in there recently, hoping she'd redirect her interest to the toy rather than herself. She did play with it from time to time, but not usually when I was around. She also has a talking toy in her cage that makes noise when she hits the buttons. She plays with it from time to time but doesn't show a lot of interest in most toys in general.

My husband builds and modifies custom guitars. The business hasn't taken off yet, so he spends a lot of time talking to potential clients and trying to build a reputation. He spends a lot of time on the phone or online trying to gain interest. He does make sure to take time out in the middle of the day to have lunch with her, etc, but I'm not here to see the extent of their interaction and I know there are some days where I am gone for 9 or 10 hours and he spends an hour with her at the most. I hate to even think about it. (For the record, she adores him. I'm her human but if we're both in the room she doesn't usually show a preference; she enjoys time with him and will lean toward him if she feels she hasn't had enough interaction with him that day.)

I don't feel that you're prying--I thank you for your help.

[Wolf]

Depends on how you look at things, I guess, for me, the use of Avi Calm is still medicating the bird. That is just my opinion and I do understand why you use it.
Bathing is a strange thing with bird as they all have their preferred manner of bathing. My Senegal only wants to bathe herself. I did purchase a bird bath that she likes to use. This is what she uses to bathe in http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/p ... atid=16514
A solar light schedule is exactly the same light schedule that the birds living outside experience. It begins with the twilight period of the approaching dawn and then shortly afterwards the bird begins to wake up and then it starts winding down with the twilight period that we call dusk and ends with the bird sleeping around full dark. These two twilight periods regulate the birds internal biological clock and so it controls the breeding cycle and molting cycles, I am sure that it does more but I don't know what other effects that it may have. By keeping the biological clock properly attuned the bird should only get hormonal when it is about to go into breeding condition once a year or twice for some of them but not all year long as we find with many captive birds. Sunlight will help with the condition of your birds feathers but it must be unfiltered sunlight which means not through the window glass as it filters the light.
My birds like shredding toys and foraging toys which can be as simple as a nut or piece of nut in some paper or piece of a coffee filter. The thing about toys is that you have to play with them in front of your bird in order to spark their interest and to teach them how to use the toy.
Depending on how the cage is situated if reference to the computer, this location could, indeed, be working against you at night. I am often on my computer at night in the same room as my birds, but none of them are in front of the screen and I don't use any other lighting at these times. It can make typing a bit tricky at first but you do adjust to it. It would be better to have a laptop and connect to your main computer through Wi Fi so that you can use the computer in another place at night so as to not interfere with the birds sleep.
I don't know how much of an inconvenience it would be for your husband to let your bird out whenever he is inside working on the computer or talking on the phone, but it would help your bird a lot with the feather problem.
I currently have 7 birds of which four of them are mated which leaves me with three single birds. I have a pair of parrotlets which are a recently mated pair and a mated pair of budgies, I also have a Cag, a Senegal and an Amazon. This is just background information. Of these bird three of them came to me with plucking issues, my CAG, my female parrotlet and my female budgie. Currently I have successfully stopped the plucking issues as well as the mutilation issue of my CAG, the plucking issues of my parrotlet, but the budgies has plucked for so long that it appears that the feather follicles have been damaged to the point of no longer producing feathers. To be honest with you the only success that I have had has been due to placing my birds on a strict solar light schedule, a good diet without any soy products or artificial preservatives, dyes, or artificial vitamins and minerals in it as well as being a low protein diet, but I feel that the major improvement was due to increasing the amount of interaction that these birds have with me. This last, the amount of interaction with your bird can be among the most difficult things to arrange for in our busy lives as we do have to work in order to provide for ourselves as well as for them. Still given the nature of parrots it is without a doubt the most important part of remedying the feather issues that you are having. This is due to their highly social nature, they are dependent on the flock for their feelings of safety and security and they are dependent on their mate for everything else. From the time that they hatch until they die, in their natural environment, they are never alone and neither their flock nor their mate is ever out of hearing range even though they may temporarily lose sight of each other. And this is why being alone or not having enough interaction with us causes them so much stress and often leads to feather destructive disorders such as barbering and plucking.

[aquagreen]

No, AviCalm is definitely medicating her, I agree. I meant in the past I wouldn't let the vet do it, and then I became desperate and tried to do something more "otc." But I have stopped giving her the AviCalm at this point.

I guess I'm not sure how I could replicate a solar light schedule...her cage is by a window, but of course that light is filtered through the glass. I don't live where it's warm enough to leave her window open or anything. Any ideas?

I do play with toys in front of her, but we need more practice at this. She "gets it" when she watches me, but has yet to really discover the joy of toys, I think. That's a work in progress.

Figuring out the computer/cage location is going to require some thought, since night time is the only time I can use my computer, and my place is small and I have limited options in terms of what I can do rearranging furniture. But I think I really have to get that figured out. I'm also afraid that moving the cage could further stress her. Part of me is beginning to wonder if medicating her (via my vet) temporarily while I make some adjustments and get her acclimated to the change would be such a bad thing. I don't *like* the idea, but I want to find some way to transition her to a better overall situation. This is very difficult. But as you said, maybe I can look into a laptop and fix the situation for everyone. (I'm not going to do anything hastily--I'm going to do whatever I end up strongly feeling is best for her, with your advice...I'm just sort of laying all my thoughts out there.) I've also thought about temporarily putting a collar on her just to try to curb the constant ability/desire to pluck, just to try to break the cycle. What do you think? I hate the idea of a collar, but I'd rather choose the lesser of two evils. Something needs to be done before she gets down to her skin and starts mutilating.

I also have a tendency to overthink things. Sometimes solutions can be simpler than I think.

I'm not around during the day to witness my husband's schedule, so it's difficult for me to say how much more time he could be spending with her. I do know he's trying, but short of me being here all day every day, I know I'm not apt to relax much while I'm away from home because I worry about her.

I thank you for your guidance...it's a comfort to hear about the success you've had. I want to fix this issue more than anything.

I will examine her diet closely to make sure the pellets I'm using are the best for her situation. What do you use in terms of food, exactly?

Thanks!

[GreenWing]

Some birds will just decide you are their mate. You're their "person."

A couple of things:

How much affection does your sennie receive? Do you have a lot of bonding time/cuddle time out of the cage?

How big is the sennie's cage?

Do you clip wings? Your status says your bird is not flighted. Flighted birds are less hormonal, live longer and are happier. This is a fact. Think of clipping wings as limiting this sentient being's mobility. That would frustrate any creature. So, if you're clipping, I would advise to stop.

Is the sennie lonely? When at work, try turning on the TV or radio.

Plucking is a sign of frustration because they feel helpless. It's like being anxious or depressed for us. The way to fix this is a good diet, a lot of time out of the cage bonding, and solar schedule. Expose the bird to sun and twilight. This will greatly help hormones.

Chance is gay, likes women, so being female I'm her mate by her own decision. She's done this dance thing and I just placed her back on her play orb when she does that.

[Pajarita]

I agree with Wolf and Greenwing that, for plucking, if anything is going to work (and the reason why I say this is that, sometimes, the habit is so very ingrained in them that even when you remove the original cause, they just keep on doing it), is a strict solar schedule (you don't need to move the cage or open the window, exposing her fully to dawn and dusk -meaning, no artificial lights before or during dawn or during and after dusk- is what does it), a lower protein diet and distraction. And don't worry about giving her the AviCalm. I don't believe in it myself but I also tried it with my Sophie CAG. When one is desperate, one is willing to try anything... I would have twirled on my head if somebody had told me it worked.

I don't feed pellets. I know that almost everybody says they are the best dietary option for parrots but I've been doing research on their natural diets for a long time and I have reached the conclusion that they are not (and I would be more than happy to give you the details of why I feel this way, if you are interested). I feed gloop and raw produce for breakfast and all day picking and, for dinner, a seed mix I doctor with roasted nuts. I have two senegals, a male and female. They are not really bonded to each other but they are fine living together (he wants her to love him but she still doesn't, contrary female that she is so he consoles himself with me - which she does not like). They've always been on the fresh food diet, solar schedule as well as fully flighted and under full spectrum light but, still, my male started plucking about three years ago when he lost his second mate in two years so I took him out of the birdroom and brought him downstairs to see if he would bond with Zoey (his name is Sweetpea and he is a genius!). He has stopped plucking altogether but he still hasn't grown all his feathers back and I hope there is no permanent follicle damage that would prevent him from having a full plumage but, as long as I know he is no longer unhappy, I don't really care what he looks like.

Now, I don't know what kind of medication your avian vet is recommending for her but if it's Lupron or similar, I would beg you to reconsider. Lupron is a contraceptive created for dogs and, what it does is make the body produce such a huge amount of sexual hormones that, the body, realizing there is something VERY wrong, stops production altogether. Personally, if I know there is a natural method of doing the same thing (the solar schedule and lower protein), I would not choose to mess up an already messed up endocrine system even further. Besides, it's always a short term solution because none of these products can be used forever so, in my mind, a short-lived and completely unnatural solution is no solution at all if there is a natural, permanent one. But people have had success with it (not everybody, either, because it doesn't work on ALL birds).

I would recommend you try changing her diet so she is not been free-fed high protein (it's also not healthy for their liver and kidneys) and putting her at a strict solar schedule with full exposure to dawn and dusk, a good full spectrum light in the room where she is kept, a strict and steady routine (this goes a looooong way toward making them feel good and I can explain why, if you would like) which needs to include, at the very least, four hours out of cage time so your husband is going to have to cooperate with this because it needs to happen during the day (say, two hours in the morning, noon rest, and two more hours in the afternoon -again, I can elaborate if you want).

People talk about plucking toys but, in my personal experience, they don't really do anything for them. Yes, all parrots like to chew and they should all be provided material for this activity but a toy is not going to stop them from producing hormones or making them feel good about their life - they are not that gullible or easy to please.

My senegals bathe on their own (and not very frequently at that, but they are always clean and sweet-smelling so I don't worry about it) and do come out for flying (they are excellent fliers and zoom around, Sweetpea following Zoey, like little airplanes) as well as one-on-one time until about 12 to 12:30 pm, when they go back to their cage for their noon rest. They stay in their cage in the afternoon because the poor cats wait for this to come out of their room (I have dogs and cats, too, so they are all in a strict schedule) but the days are so short this time of the year that they don't need to come out again in the afternoon (which they do in the warm months). At 3:30 to 3:45 pm (depends on how bright the day is), they get their full spectrum light turned off and half an hour later, their dinner - after they eat it, they go to roost and sleep until the following morning at 6:30 am when I open their cage without turning on the lights which I do at around 7:15 to 7:30 am.

[aquagreen]

GreenWing:

When I'm home, she receives a lot of affection. If I'm here, her cage door is open, and she's usually on me (except when I'm trying to do something complicated). I can't say how it is when I'm not here, because I don't see her with my husband. I believe he tends to let her out with him for lunch, which would probably include her sitting on her play stand and watching TV with him, contenting herself with snacks of veggies. He probably also puts her on his shoulder when he types up emails, etc. That's generally how it goes when I'm home to see him spend time with her.

Her cage isn't enormous, but I've checked measurements and know that it is appropriately sized for her. She has plenty of room to stretch her wings, and has to travel a ways to get from her food dish to her water dish. There are perches at different levels. Anyway, having said all that, I do think at some point in the future I may get her a larger cage.

Flighted birds may be less hormonal, I don't know, but mine has demonstrated the opposite in the past. It's a long story, but the lowest point of our relationship happened while she was flighted. As soon as I had her clipped, she was willing to socialize with me again almost instantly, after 9 months of difficulty. My place is small and she is an anxious bird; I definitely fear that flight = danger for her and that she would hurt herself. Also, I rent the upstairs of a house where the only separation between our apartment and the one below is a staircase. She could easily get down those stairs and out a window if I allowed her to fly.

I do leave sound on for her when I'm not around. I try to mix it up so she doesn't get bored with the same thing all the time.

Thanks for your advice!

Pajarita:

I know I've read a post on your sennies, and your effort to get him to stop plucking. Sounds like you did a very good job. I was wondering if you'd be willing to share exactly what you make for them to eat?

I have decided to purchase a tablet so that I don't bother my bird at night by coming in and out of my office. I'm a night owl and I'm sure it's very disruptive for her.

Thanks for the advice re: Lupron. I'm not sure if that's what my vet would use, but I haven't spoken to him about it yet, and I don't plan to. I want to help her improve without it.

Any advice on a good full-spectrum lamp, anyone? Maybe a standing model? Her cage is about 5'4" tall.

I have also considered purchasing her a companion, but she is insanely jealous and didn't like it when we had another bird in the past, so I'm not convinced that's the best route or that I could trust her with another bird.

[Wolf]

I love my Kiki Senegal immensely, although she can be a bit of a pain at times. She would be happier, I think, if she had a mate. The thing is that Senegals are notorious for rejecting mates, no matter how careful you are about trying to get them an appropriate one. They apparently want and need to choose their own mates as they very often reject your choices even when the bird you choose is the right age, the opposite sex and the same species. Like many humans, they often have their own ideas and are not into arranged marriages. And it is not safe to take them to visit with possible mates before you get the bird, quarantine issues.
Stairway can be a real pain or not so bad, it depends on how they are built. If there is an actual doorway at the top, you might be able to put a screen across the opening. That might allow you to allow your girl more flight time, but that is about as far as I want to go into the clipping issue at this time.

[Pajarita]

Yes, the "Plucking Senegal experiment" is still going on and it's all due to the fact that sennies are, as Wolf pointed out, difficult birds to get to bond with another one once they imprint with humans. Now, Sweetpea, the male Senegal in question, had not had a good life before coming to live with me precisely because of his high aggression. His owners called him 'the Senegal from hell' and they were not actually very far off in their description as he was, and continues to be, the most aggressive bird I've ever had (and I've had doozies, let me tell you!) but he is no longer aggressive (it has taken 8 years but he is now my friend). Because of the way he was kept (in a small cage -without ever coming out) and because he was highly hormonal (he was free-fed high protein and kept at a human light schedule), he fell head over heels for Tobita, a female Senegal I had, at first sight. When she died, he hooked up with Nikky, an old Nanday, which died shortly after - and that was what made him start plucking. He is now living with Zoey in the same cage but they are not really bonded... at least, not yet. They fly together (zooming like little airplanes) and perch together but they eat from separate food bowls (they also get two pieces of fruits, veggies and leafy greens put in different spots in the cage) and she still doesn't allow him to touch her so he consoles himself with me (pestering me for hours to pay attention to him when I am trying to work on the computer ) For what I can observe, he has stopped plucking so I hope that, with any luck, there isn't that much follicle damage and he will regain his full plumage by next year's molt.

I feed them the same thing I feed all my parrots: gloop (several recipes in the diet section), some people use chop, some mash and I guess what you feed depends on what your parrot likes best. Mine prefer gloop. Senegals can actually eat higher protein than other birds their size (like conures, for example) but, in my personal opinion, free-feeding high protein is not good for any parrot. They just end up eating too much of it and not enough produce.

As to what light bulb to recommend, it depends on what kind of source it has to be. Tubes are better, in my opinion (this is the best I've found: http://www.amazon.com/NaturesSunliteTM- ... B008RXUUNY), but, sometimes, you have to use bulbs (http://shop.mercola.com/product/30w-com ... 93,1,0.htm) and then, if you want to put it right above the cage and have a handy husband, you can do a recessed (http://www.homedepot.com/p/EnviroLite-S ... /205978327).

There used to be better (I used to get a Philips fluorescent tube with a CRI of 98) but, for some reason, they keep on changing the specs and the model numbers...