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Let's Talk About Clipping

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Re: Let's Talk About Clipping

Postby Pajarita » Fri Apr 29, 2016 11:02 am

Yes, I also, like you, Wolf, would like to hear from more people. Do you, guys, agree or disagree? What are your thoughts on the arguments given? Thing is, I don't think that any other member other than Seagoatdeb actually clips (this is, after all, very much so a pro-flight site) and that might be the reason why she ended up been the only one on that side of the debate which is unfortunate because, inevitably, she'll feel that the arguments are against her, personally, when they are not. They are against the practice.

Your comment, Wolf, that we should not make the non-clippers feel like our enemies struck a chord in me and I was thinking that this is the reason why most sites do not even allow the debate to take place when, after all, it's an integral part of husbandry as much as diet, housing, etc. And I think it's because, inevitably, the arguments the clipping side gives will bring rebuttals from the non-clipping that would make the clippers feel the non-clippers think they are inadequate. But, even though I thought and thought and thought about it, I couldn't find a way to word them so as not to make it this way. I wish I could have found it though...

As to the human/bird relationship been the most important thing, Seagoatdeb, I agree with you 100% only I don't separate clipping from it, I make it a part of it.
Pajarita
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Re: Let's Talk About Clipping

Postby seagoatdeb » Fri Apr 29, 2016 2:38 pm

Pajarita wrote:Yes, I also, like you, Wolf, would like to hear from more people. Do you, guys, agree or disagree? What are your thoughts on the arguments given? Thing is, I don't think that any other member other than Seagoatdeb actually clips (this is, after all, very much so a pro-flight site) and that might be the reason why she ended up been the only one on that side of the debate which is unfortunate because, inevitably, she'll feel that the arguments are against her, personally, when they are not. They are against the practice.

Your comment, Wolf, that we should not make the non-clippers feel like our enemies struck a chord in me and I was thinking that this is the reason why most sites do not even allow the debate to take place when, after all, it's an integral part of husbandry as much as diet, housing, etc. And I think it's because, inevitably, the arguments the clipping side gives will bring rebuttals from the non-clipping that would make the clippers feel the non-clippers think they are inadequate. But, even though I thought and thought and thought about it, I couldn't find a way to word them so as not to make it this way. I wish I could have found it though...

As to the human/bird relationship been the most important thing, Seagoatdeb, I agree with you 100% only I don't separate clipping from it, I make it a part of it.



Gee whiz, It can be so hard to get you to see where I am comming from pajarita. Both my parrots, fly well enough to take off from the floor, they can turn in mid air. I am not in favor of severe clipping but i accept that many do use it, and hope to see them start to use clips that are better for the parrots. Many on this forum clip, they deserve help too, and not be centered out and pounced on. This chain was for presenting all view points. The topic was lets talk about clipping and it was not clipped against unclipped. I will not end up feeling everyone else is against me, because I experience mostly very positive experiences with most members here. They just presented their points. I respect everyones opinion. only you have ben debating. So i guess thats why you see it the way you do. You are debating and you want to win the debate. I only wanted to state that there is a moderate way to clip, and to add to the body of knowledge, so I guess we were coming from two different places, and that is okay.
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Re: Let's Talk About Clipping

Postby Wolf » Fri Apr 29, 2016 11:02 pm

With the number of people that are members of this forum, I find that it is hard to believe that there are not quite a few that do clip their bids some more than others.

While it is true that in order to actually discuss this topic in ant meaningful way it is helpful to say that one does favor the use of clipping or that you do not it is not about right or wrong or winning and losing it is only about the sharing of information on the topic.

It goes without my having to say it but if I say that I don't clip my birds and would only do so if there is a valid medical reason to do so that I do not agree with clipping. My statement alone establishes what I think is right and I don't need to keep saying it . But this is not about who is right or wrong it is all about why a person clips or does not as well as what kind of clips that they use if they do and why. In truth this topic may be a little unfair to those that do not clip but it does provide a place for those that do clip to talk about it without those of us that do not clip our birds insisting that it is wrong, this is more about listening than anything else or at least that is how I envisioned it, but these things do have a tendency to take on their own life so to speak. I am just trying to keep it on track, maybe later on I will start one to talk all about why to not clip, perhaps I will title it " Let's talk about not clipping" just to balance the equation out.
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Re: Let's Talk About Clipping

Postby seagoatdeb » Sat Apr 30, 2016 12:54 am

Wolf that is a great idea, because those that clip would feel safer posting, and those that dont clip can have there say.

But because there is already so much anti clipping on this chain it might make it harder for them to post. Maybe it would be better to leave this one as a post for everyone and start a new one that is titled Only for those who clip to talk or something like that.

Anyone who clips sure does not need to hear the anti clipping thoughts of anyone, they have seen them again and again, in this post as well as other places in the forum so they know all the anti clipping arguments. They have decided in favor of safety, or being able to have a parrot they can handle better, and have a realtionship with better is more important and decided that the benefits of the clipping and the realtionship with their parrot outweigh any health risks. i have heard some say because they handle their parrot better, this adds to there life. Some say you do what you have to to keep them safe and your home happy.

That is what I hear in the groups that favour clipping, In those groups, I talk about modest clips.
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Re: Let's Talk About Clipping

Postby Wolf » Sat Apr 30, 2016 9:42 am

I don' think that I would ever make a post that would exclude anyone, it would be counter to what I wish to accomplish.

I have heard most if not all of the reasons for clipping a bird, but I have had to wade through a lot of negative crap to learn about this. The sharing of the information is not the problem, it is people who must insist on their way instead of listening to each other and trying to understand. I have seen this from both sides and it gets worse because once you have been run rough shod over a few times you come to expect it all the time and despite your intent you become overly sensitive and very defensive about it and separating this into the we and they is not going to heal this in any stretch of the imagination, the only thing that will is for us to learn to listen to each other in a respectful manner and then to try to understand.

I can't imagine that anyone with a bird would think that clipping is good for the bird, but I can't imagine that those who use clipping are intending to harm their birds either. This is not only about the birds this is about the humans as well, it is about relationships and quality of life and that is the real issue involved in the clipping, in my opinion.

I have to go for now, life intrudes.
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Re: Let's Talk About Clipping

Postby Pajarita » Sat Apr 30, 2016 10:34 am

I would love to hear from other members who clip - even if they don't want to give the reasons why or get into the argument (they could post something to that effect - like: "I clip but I don't want to argue about it"). But, been that this is Michael's site and that most people who join it do it for him and his methods, I don't think that many people who do clip would stay. I mean, flight is one of the main tenets of Michael's husbandry so his site would be, of course, anti-clipping.

Birdsites have identities. Some favor clipping, some don't and some don't want to get into the argument; some favor breeders, some are completely against them or anybody who buys a baby bird (I used to know one like this but I don't think it still exists); some are all for pellets, some are into fresh food; some are for fluff, some for science; some are more human-oriented while others are all about the birds, etc. and people tend to join the one that fits their views the best because we all like to feel that we are accepted and liked. The problem with that is the birdsites end up been a complete 'preaching to the choir' thing... but I don't know if that can be really solved.
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Re: Let's Talk About Clipping

Postby Wolf » Sat Apr 30, 2016 12:38 pm

I do not think that we can solve the clipping issue, but we can be a site where we can reasonably discuss anything and everything that affects our birds in any manner if we choose to do so.

I am 100% for the birds, but if we are going to openly discuss out birds and those things that impact them then we can not rule out the human factors as they impact our birds more than anything else. The relationship between the bird and its human is incredibly important to the birds well being and so we need to also give it due consideration.

We are not going to solve the worlds parrot issues on this site. It is up to us to try to improve the lives of or parrots and to assist those that come here to learn and to help them to improve the lives of their parrots. Sometimes this can only be accomplished in small steps and I am for anything that can be used to improve the parrots life, even when it is something that I do not personally agree with. There is time enough to try to teach the person to do even better.
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Re: Let's Talk About Clipping

Postby seagoatdeb » Sat Apr 30, 2016 1:10 pm

i think all we can do is support each other, and help the quality of life for each parrot through that suupport.Also we so affect people and their parrots just through this discussion, we have a lot of views on this topic.
Last edited by seagoatdeb on Sat Apr 30, 2016 5:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Let's Talk About Clipping

Postby ~Karen » Sat Apr 30, 2016 4:16 pm

Do you feel that most parrot owners in general clip or don't clip?

I have never clipped my birds. Their wings are just too beautiful to do that to them. But despite me never clipping wings I have 2 birds that don't fly.

Kady has never flown due to his FDB's where he twists his secondaries and breaks them. He also has Xanthomas on his wingtips that probably would hinder him even if he did not have FDB's.

Kita has the most beautiful gorgeous lovely feathers and wings. Sadly she no longer flies due to blindness.
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Re: Let's Talk About Clipping

Postby seagoatdeb » Sat Apr 30, 2016 4:26 pm

~Karen wrote:Do you feel that most parrot owners in general clip or don't clip?

I have never clipped my birds. Their wings are just too beautiful to do that to them. But despite me never clipping wings I have 2 birds that don't fly.

Kady has never flown due to his FDB's where he twists his secondaries and breaks them. He also has Xanthomas on his wingtips that probably would hinder him even if he did not have FDB's.

Kita has the most beautiful gorgeous lovely feathers and wings. Sadly she no longer flies due to blindness.


Geez thats a hard question to answer, Most cage bond parrots who are stuck in cages are fully flighted even if they cant use it, Most breeders clip before they sell. Many peole have fully flighted....I have no idea the statistics. Mine are both really good fliers, and right now both are hormonal so there is a lot of flying going on.
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Flight: Yes

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