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Let's Talk About Clipping

Chat about general parrot care and parrot owner lifestyle. Bird psychology, activities, trimming, clipping, breeding etc.

Re: Let's Talk About Clipping

Postby Pajarita » Thu Apr 21, 2016 12:18 pm

Like I said, mild clipping as a temporary tool is fine with me as long as it's not done right after molt because that means an entire year and, although one could say that one year is still temporary, taking into consideration that their flight muscles already show visual atrophy after only 40 days, a year is way too long. But how many people do we know that actually uses mild clipping this way? Personally, I don't know of anybody. Going by what I read on postings, people either always clip or they never do - and most clippers do think that this ensures safety or gives them control over the bird's actions. There is a number of people that having gotten their bird clipped from the breeder or pet store or having made the initial decision to clip later decided to allow the clipped feathers to molt and never do it again but that doesn't really count as a temporary tool - it's more a learning curve because they ended up been non-clippers (kind of like people who bought their first bird from a breeder and later realizing how huge the overpopulation problem is decided to adopt or rescue from then on).

So, in my mind, "Clipping or no clipping, that is the question" does not really cover a temporary mild clip but a permanent state.
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Re: Let's Talk About Clipping

Postby seagoatdeb » Thu Apr 21, 2016 1:42 pm

Pajarita wrote:
So, in my mind, "Clipping or no clipping, that is the question" does not really cover a temporary mild clip but a permanent state.


But isnt that what you would really like to see changed? Instead of owners stubbornly taking one side and refusing to ever look at other ways.

In my mind, there is severe cliping ranging all the way to no clipping and in between there are all kinds of clips. That why it isnt as simple to me as clip or no clip. Some clips cause permanent damage to parrots and some do not. That to me is the "real" thing on this issue and has the most importance.

Whenever I see a real firm never clip stance, in a group.....there will always be fights break out and the ones who clip very rarely coment there. In the groups that dont take such a hard line then there will be more that talk about it. When people wil talk about it "change" can happen. When people just keep the position they have always held everything becomes Stagnant.

Also it does not matter "when" the mildest clip is done. on a heavy parrot one outside feather does not hamper their flight at all after they get used to it in a few days. on a light body parrot 2 outside feathers also does not change them after they get used to it.......If the mild clip is done with 3 feathers or more than it should wait until just before moult, depending on how heavy bodied the parrot is. The parrot shoulld always be able to fly up, or I dont believe you can call the clip mild anymore in my opinion.
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Re: Let's Talk About Clipping

Postby Pajarita » Fri Apr 22, 2016 10:24 am

What I would like is for everybody to stop clipping :lol:

And, in my mind, the issue is to clip or not to clip. It's not as black and white to you because you are parting from your own personally formulated premise that mild clipping causes no harm. But there's absolutely no scientific evidence that agrees with your opinion. The only scientific evidence we do have at this point in time about flight, its lack, or impairment says that nature makes no mistakes and that any deviation from it does have deleterious consequences. And that is not acceptable to me.

If, down the road, there are studies done that say that a mild clip does not affect a bird emotionally or physically in any way, I will gladly review my position.
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Re: Let's Talk About Clipping

Postby beakycheekie » Fri Apr 22, 2016 12:11 pm

Hhmm. I don't know that I have strong feelings one way or the other. I think I would have to say that I lean towards being in the non-clipping camp. I bought my birds the biggest cages I could afford (flight cages for both the budgies and the tiels) but I don't kid myself that this takes the place of actual flight. Two of my seven birds are clipped right now and they both came that way. I don't plan on clipping them again once they molt.

An interesting story to share:
The other day my son was outside playing in the yard. I opened the budgie cage to feed them and Woody immediately came flying out. He flew right to the sliding door and landed on it, at that very moment my son, who had no idea what had happened, began to open the door. I yelled and he stopped but it was close! I would have lost one of my birds forever and as far as I see it, it was no one's fault. It simply happened as a series of simultaneous, rapid events that thankfully ended ok.
“For me, the sight of a parrot living alone, living in a cage, deprived of flight, miserably bored, breaks my heart. And the parrot’s too, perhaps.”

— Jane Goodall
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Re: Let's Talk About Clipping

Postby Wolf » Fri Apr 22, 2016 7:59 pm

I have birds and I do not clip them and for that reason I do not have any window or door leading to the outside that does not also have a screen, I wish that I could also afford to make every doorway leading outside into a double entry so that you open the door come in and close the door then open the second door to gain entry into the house.

I can't say that you would have lost your budgie forever or not, but I can say that with his being fully flighted that he had a better chance of surviving long enough for you to find and recover him. But it does give one pause when something like this happens and in your situation the only thing other than suggesting that a sliding screen door should be added, that I can suggest is to watch a little more closely to make sure that no one is near the door when you let the birds out. We can't always predict what others may do and for this reason may not be able to prevent all accidents, we can try to be more aware and prevent most of them. You were indeed lucky that your bird did not get out as that would have scared the bird as much as it did scare you. I am thankful that anything bad was averted.
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Re: Let's Talk About Clipping

Postby pukeko » Fri Apr 22, 2016 10:34 pm

A side note, birds who can't fly, whether from injuries or harsh clips, do not always believe that that is the case, and that is dangerous and very hard to deal with. I think people underestimate the dangers of falling, even if a bird can flutter - cumulative impacts can do organ damage. Mer still stubbornly believe that he can fly, 2.5 years after he lost the ability, and his increased confidence in other areas of his life has not helped at all. Foolhardy? Foolish? Regardless, everytime he decides that waiting in his sleep cage for me to put a sweater on takes too long, he is in danger. Putting him on the floor is only a partial answer, or padding, or holding him cupped in hands, or holding a foot (arthritis-causing in the knee), or providing an elbow crook for leaning into while allowing flapping, keeping he feet well below the arm, etc.. But, just, not all birds are changeable or mentally/emotionally intact or smart enough to even appear to adjust to lacking their wings. And little is harder to catch than a bird who can sometimes get lift and then, tilting, instantly plummet. Or who takes off from the ground only to fall back again.

And if they have feathers enough to consistently flutter, they have wings enough to be taken by the wind.

I never appreciated how dangerous a lack of flight could be until I reveived Mer, who, although he is keen to dance and such, can never be a cartwheel companion or even enjoy a flapping run without serious precautions due to his fearlessness/denial. Flightless birds are disabled, and while some may cope well with being pedestrians or be so by choice, not all of them can handle it.
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Re: Let's Talk About Clipping

Postby pukeko » Fri Apr 22, 2016 10:39 pm

Oh, and if they don't deal well with it and it is clipping, not permanent injury, regaining feathers can be dangerous too - if they are conniving to fly while sporting unprotected bloodfeathers you can wind up with months or years of trying to protect the feathers, enforcing periods of low activity and less energetic play if they are play-clowns or flailers, seasons with damaged regrowth due to bloodfeather injury or dealing with lots of broken pins, imping if you can find a donor and experienced vet/falconer, etc. Recovering clipped wings is not always easy.
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Re: Let's Talk About Clipping

Postby Wolf » Sat Apr 23, 2016 7:10 am

How much harm does or can clipping a birds wings cause the bird? What do you use as a criteria for establishing how much harm is being done by clipping? Are we looking at mental, physical and/ or emotional damage when we say that clipping causes harm or that it does not? In what circumstances do you consider that the possible harm to the bird is justified in order to prevent another harm from occurring?

These are all questions that come to mind from reading all of the posts here on this thread. These questions have nothing to do with my own research into clipping, just because I feel that the most relavant way to approach this, is to stay with this as if I had no experience or knowledge of clipping and this was the first source of information on clipping that I had found.

Now except for the instance of a bird being confined to a cage without being allowed out of cage time because some humans just do not appear capable of living with a bird that can fly, I do not believe that there has been anything that indicates to me that clipping might be a viable alternative to just bucking up and learning to deal with a flighted bird in your life. Any thoughts on this?
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Re: Let's Talk About Clipping

Postby Pajarita » Sat Apr 23, 2016 12:45 pm

Well, there is no empirical evidence whatsoever that tells us that mild clipping does not harm the bird and, while there is no actual study that has quantified harm from different types of clipping, all the studies that deal directly or indirectly with flight, its lack, or impairment show that there is harm. Is this harm justified under certain circumstances and, if so, which, specifically, are these circumstances? This is, I think, the Gordian knot of the 'To clip or not to clip' issue.

Personally, I don't think that any circumstance justifies it as a permanent lifestyle choice for the bird although it can be justified as a temporary tool IF no other tool is available to the keeper (and that is a big IF, mind you!).

I do see where you are coming from, Wolf, with the 'if the only way the parrot is going to be taken out of its cage' argument but I don't agree with it. I think that if you cannot provide an animal with an environment and care conducive to its wellbeing, you should not have it. And, in truth, it's not as if it's mission impossible to keep a flighted parrot... it's more a matter of ingenuity and work than anything else. Infrastructure helps and that's why I have always said that, if you want to keep a parrot, you need to think of having the right infrastructure. I have kept companion animals my entire life so, to me, the 'infrastructure requisites' have become second nature and I always make mental notes when I go to see a new house if it would work out for us so we never consider a house that is on a busy street or one that does not have a bit of a garden in front and a backyard, and we always 'fix' things before we move in so backyards get fenced in and a strong gate with a good lock is installed, screens are provided for all windows, the birdroom is prepped, buffer zones are created, etc. These 'extras' make everybody's life easier in the long run (especially mine :D ).
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Re: Let's Talk About Clipping

Postby Chantilly » Sat Apr 23, 2016 4:07 pm

Thank you Wolf for this,
Ok, gonna throw my 2cents out here, I hope I am not getting in the way of the thread by posting, but I really want to talk about this + share a few stories so here we go:
Birds were born with wings for a reason. They grow flight feathers for a reason. It is 100% natural for them to fly (it is the fastest way to get around) , and to take that ability of them would be like taking legs of a human.


My top 7 reasons why NOT to clip (in no specific order). Please excuse me if I am more so just repeating what has already been posted.

1. Escaping unwanted situations, 2. Gives the bird a choice, 3. Exercise , 4. It does not make things safer, 5. The bird can still easily get blown of outside, 6. It has a higher survival chance if flighted, 7. With flight you can learn your birds true colours.

Flight is a parrots #1 defence mechanism. Escape! If you take away that number one way to survive, the bird will revert to its #2 defence mechanism. Beak, this means if you clip, you are going to be living with a lot more aggression.
Having a flighted parrot means your bird chooses when and if it wants you, and it is so amazing to have your bird want you and come TO you, instead of being forced to be with you, which is a form of flooding. I think this is a major reason birds are clipped, I think humans are SCARED to not be in charge, humans are scared to not have control, they just don't understand the difference in a pack of dogs to a flock of parrots. Parrots treat each other equal, there is no ranking system.
The amount of energy that goes into flying cannot ever possibly compare to any kind of exercise that a clipped bird can get.
People think that having a clipped bird will stop it from flying out a door, I have read many stories that prove this wrong, a bird, clipped or not clipped can still fly to an extent, enough that it can and many times has flown out the door. Same story with ceiling fans, no matter what they should be off when a parrot is out, clipped or flighted.
People think clipping will let them take their parrots outside without the worry of flying away, this will never truly happen, the tiniest lift can sweep your parrot away in an instant.
Parrots that fly away have a much, much, much better chance of getting up high and keeping safe than clipped parrots that are exhausted just from being lifted up by the wind. In addition to this, it can fly to a human when it sees or hears it.
A parrot with flight is a parrot with confidence. Well, more than can be said for a clipped bird. A flighted bird knows its free and that it has a choice, its not forced into anything.-Keeping a bird flighted lets you see its true colours.


Ok, story time... volunteering has helped me so much as to getting information and me form opinion on this topic, and I would like to share three stories that relate to the pros and cons of clipping.
All of the following are from the mysterious place I volunteer :lol:, but I hope this can prove to be helpful information.
Lucky, little GCC who flew away. (I'll refer to as a female.)
Lucky arrived at the sanctuary only a few days ago. She/He flew on to a mans head as he walked the streets. He went to have her step up and she flew up into a really tall tree, so the guy just went home.
Later on that day when he was gardening she flew onto him and he took her inside got her some water (and she was really thirsty) and then got her some 'tucker' (which she devoured within seconds.)
How amazing that she knew that she would need the human. Now tell me this- would a clipped bird been able to follow this man like that?
Being flighted saved her life.

2.Various birds who come in clipped. -
You wouldn't believe how many of the birds we get are clipped. Its awful! Now this has only happened twice, but what happened is a bird gets back its feathers, and can fly so it is released with the others... It flies of and lands, and without it being noticed is too weak to make another flight, the bird gets attacked by others for intruding territories or feeding grounds and it is just to weak and exhausted to fight back! This or the bird will fly into its own species area, seemingly gets accepted and then is just to tired to get to feeding grounds. We try very hard not to let this happen, and are always keeping a sharp eye out for any birds like this, its just sad how weak clipping leaves the bird.

3. Jo-Jo, female eclectus, severe dermatitis and other health issues.
Jo-Jo has severe dermatitis, she is plucked bare from neck to tail despite the amount of attention she gets. She has a bad infection in her wings and every time she flys a wound would opens up and it get infected worse. This is an example of when a clip was necessary. Jo-Jo is no longer at the park, he has found a home elsewhere with people that can give her 1 on 1, 24/67.



Well thanks for that, sorry for rambling on, just unless its for medical reasons as was said, I fail to see any appropriate reason for clipping.
Also, I wrote this last night before internet blacked out on me... so if the thread has moved along a lot I am sorry.

It is our fault these animals were taken from the wild, becoming almost extinct and then bred into our homes. The least we can do is give them a life as similar as their elder generations had before our elder generations took that away, meaning flight...
And anthough she be little, she is fierce ~Shakespeare
- Tilly & Shrek
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Chantilly
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